Well you can take that up with James Hornfischer, author of "Last Stand of the Tin Can Sailors", If he's in error on this point, it wouldn't be the.only detail error he's guilty of.
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Well you can take that up with James Hornfischer, author of "Last Stand of the Tin Can Sailors", If he's in error on this point, it wouldn't be the.only detail error he's guilty of.In order to drive a Casablanca class CVE 28kn, you need >50,000 hp and to run the engine in excess of 350 rpms. Didn't happen
Interestingly, British-operated Mitchells retained those under-turrets.
I know little of these CVE's, so this post is not of a declared personal knowledge, neither did I stay at a Holiday Inn Express last night.Can we put a CVE and/or DE hitting 28+ kn into the myths busted section of the forum?
The Casablanca class CVEs at Samar had a designed top speed of 19 kn on 9,000 hp from a 5 cylinder Skinner Marine uniflow steam engine operating on steam of 285psi and 577°F. The best I can find is the engines ran round 200-225 rpms.
In order to drive a Casablanca class CVE 28kn, you need >50,000 hp and to run the engine in excess of 350 rpms. Didn't happen - the reciprocating engines wouldn't run that fast, the boilers would develop that much steam. And ships take time to accelerate, so you need more than just a couple minutes - see HMS Glorious.
Even the USS Samuel B. Roberts didn't hit 28+ knots for similar reasons: The DE was designed for 24 kn on 12,000hp. To hit 28.7 kn (speed noted on Wiki), the boilers would need to be producing enough steam for almost 50,000 hp. Sticking a screwdriver in the relief valve and letting pressure go to 50% overload isn't changing the underlying thermodynamics that there wasn't enough steam flow.
Another big reason that the belly turret was removed was that the raid's altitude was decided to be low level, so a belly turret was useless, as was the Norden sight. Removing the turret saved 600 lbs according to Lawson, but he does not mention how much weight the replacement of the Norden sight saved. Lawson also describes training at 500 ft before the altitude was raised to 1,500 ft, which left him quite relieved because a training run with 100 lbs bombs made him jump and hit his head on the plane's roof.Because of the early launch, only one B-25 crossed the coast of Japan at its correct point. That was Plane No 10, commanded by Joyce and navigated by my High School Teacher, H. E. Crouch.
The standard B-25B weapons fit included a remote controlled belly turret with two .50 cal guns. Those were removed on the Doolittle B-25's to allow extra fuel as well as because experience showed showed you could not hit anything with the damn thing, anyway. Thus the need for the dummy guns sticking out the tail bubble. It is entirely possible, that given the lack of low six o clock protection, more than just the Doolittle B-25's stuck a couple of dummy guns out the tail bubble. I think one book mentioned some units employed a .30 cal gun mounted a Jeep spring sticking out the tail bubble, designed to be turned on remotely to scare off fighters attacking from the tail.
In fact, in the Med some B-25 units installed a tail gun position with two .50 cal guns that looked very much like the ones factory installed on the B-25H and B-25J, although a little cruder.
So there was the possibility that 18 planes could have gone on the raid? There was enough room of the flight deck for that?Another big reason that the belly turret was removed was that the raid's altitude was decided to be low level, so a belly turret was useless, as was the Norden sight. Removing the turret saved 600 lbs according to Lawson, but he does not mention how much weight the replacement of the Norden sight saved. Lawson also describes training at 500 ft before the altitude was raised to 1,500 ft, which left him quite relieved because a training run with 100 lbs bombs made him jump and hit his head on the plane's roof.
A few other nuggets from the book that y'all might find interesting:
The plan was never specifically 16 B-25s. 24 volunteer crews arrived in Eglin AFB, and those were the ones that were trained. During the course of training not all aircraft made the cut. Lawson does not give the date, but mentions that during short-field takeoff practice Lt. Joyce's aircraft dropped back down onto the runway after raising the gear, though fortunately there was no fire and no deaths. Joyce did still go on the raid, but that's one less B-25. Before being loaded onto the Hornet, all the aircraft had their propellers replace, radios removed and were given a few days in McClellan Field to have any other necessary repairs done. Lawson's opinion of these repairs is very negative, and he blames them for damage to the Ruptured Duck's interphone system. Arriving in Sacramento, Doolittle asked crews if everything was okay with their aircraft. Lawson said that the aircraft was okay, and the Duck was lifted onto the Hornet. He then saw other crews being instructed to taxi into a hangar instead and learned that those aircraft had been cut from the raid. Had he mentioned his interphone problems he would've been too. Two now ship-less crews went on the USS Hornet as replacements, and according to Lawson one pilot did choose to switch his copilot for one of the replacements before the raid.
And on another note, the reason the aircraft involved in the raid had deicer boots fitted was because at the time the USAAF was negotiating with Russia about letting the aircraft land there (which York and his crew ended up doing anyway due to being very low on fuel) and delivering them as lend-lease. While Russia ultimately decided against allowing the crews to land due to their neutrality pact with Japan and plans were made to land in China instead, the boots were never removed.
I beleive by the time they were ready to go, it had been decided on 15 for the mission, the 16th was for a takeoff test after they shipped out, but the demo was cancelled and the 16th was included in the raid.So there was the possibility that 18 planes could have gone on the raid? There was enough room of the flight deck for that?
I always wondered why they didn't do the raid with P-38s. The "F" model had just come out. It had a 2000 mile range with drop tanks. Clean, it could carry 2,000 lbs. of bombs, which is what each Mitchell carried on the raid. With its (somewhat) smaller size, they could've sent more than 16 Lightnings on the USS Hornet. With a mix of extra fuel and bombs, and the ability to send more aircraft, the Lightning has always seemed to me to have been the obvious choice for the mission.
-Irish
Certainly there were not many Mosquito B.IVs at that time, and they would have been the series i, of which only 10 were made. The B.IV series ii would only become operational the following month.
It would be a bit controversial to use Mosquitos to declare war on Japan? (Typo I presume).Let's consider for a moment, that the RAF made Mossies available to the USAAC.
Would there have been 24 available in fall of 1940?
The B-25 crews that worked up the mission between February and April were seasoned crews, so there would have been an extended time of familiarization needed prior to the work up period (which is why I figured fall).
Another big reason that the belly turret was removed was that the raid's altitude was decided to be low level, so a belly turret was useless, as was the Norden sight. Removing the turret saved 600 lbs according to Lawson, but he does not mention how much weight the replacement of the Norden sight saved.
Also, isn't the Lexington and Saratoga bigger than the Hornet? Couldn't they have used one of them?
The two Lexington class carriers were slightly larger (60 feet longer, 12,000 tons heavier, half a knot faster, and 6 aircraft more powerful) than Hornet, but were not readily available at the time. Saratoga was in drydock and Lexington was prowling the Coral Sea protecting Port Moresby. Besides, Doolittle's planes were already embarked on Hornet, who had ferried them from Alameda, and transferring them to another carrier would have been impossible to do in the requisite secrecy.
Would there have been 24 available in fall of 1940?