The F-35 Is Now the World’s Most INSANE Stealth Fighter: Here's Why

[davparlr]

Yes, the flux capacitor was developed in the late 20th century using the flux capacitor concept which itself was postulated in the mid 20th century. Many attempts to get the capacitor to work failed. Not until the invention the DeLoren did any success occur. Apparently stainless steel provided the key in focusing the potential of the capacitor and there was several successful applications of that. However, the concept did not produce the product improvement as expected in other devices, the Betamax VCR, the Pinto, cold fusion, and, of course, the Boeing JSF, to name a few. So, we never really see any applications of the concept anymore.

 

[SaparotRob]

Is this information to be shared with the general public?

 

[davparlr]

Yes, its all the information at this level has been downgraded to unclassified.

 

[SaparotRob]

I'm just a little concerned about those black helicopters.

 

[nuuumannn]

in this field i must tell there are a lot of lies which actors spread with no shame, from all directions obviously. From Usa, Cia, Russia, China and the reality of things are very different from what we are capable to know

Possibly, but as ordinary citizens of this earth and the societies we create for ourselves, there are some things we should and should not know. What those things are and how that information is hidden from us and to what lengths organisations will go to in order to keep that information hidden are beyond the scope of this thread and quite possibly this forum... *wink wink*

Yes, its all the information at this level has been downgraded to unclassified.

Well, what they want you to know, of course...

 

[nuuumannn]

I'm just a little concerned about those black helicopters.

You neednt be; it's just paint.

 

[FLYBOYJ]

 

[ThomasP]

LOL! LOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLL!!!!!! (from my chair)

LOLOLOLOLOOLOLOOLOLOOOLLOLLOLL!!! (from the floor by my chair)

 

[SaparotRob]

I imagine (a "what if") how great it'd be if the Allies came up with this stuff and allowed the Abwher to steal it.

 

[Schweik]

Some excellent points but a few comments...

Agree 100%!!!

Some issues here - FIRST the USAF doesn't fly F-18s! Did you mean F-15s??

Yes sorry, it was interservice so there were USAAF and Navy people there, but mostly Navy. The first guys I spoke to were F-15 pilots.

Yes, an 0-6 and above will never throw a negative light on a major weapons system, especially if they are remotely involved with it. Up until 2018 I worked out of the Air Force Academy and we had former cadets that went on to F-15s and F-16s and eventually to the F-35 and even in the earlier stages had nothing but praise for the aircraft and the potential seen within the program. [/quote]

At a certain level officers become political.

Right now the F-35C is the least loved of all 3 models (if you were speaking to F-18 drivers). I do know many F-18 drivers who are not convinced and will want to stay with their Hornets.

That was the impression I got. From the F-15 guys too even though some of their airframes were so old.

And again good points but I disagree with your comments about the P-38, an aircraft that was never designed for a war in Europe and never planned for mass production. Considering when the US went to war, when issues were identified and then fixed (2 years) and the logistics involved during that era, (let alone the red tape) this was nothing short of a miracle considering this aircraft was developed before the war and still in production on V-J day!

I'm not just talking about the really tricky compressibility problems. Some of the electrical system issues and the cockpit heating could and should have been improved much more quickly.

And there I disagree - you have to think outside the aluminum and rivet box and understand that you now have a flying supercomputer. If you would have told someone 30 years ago that you can build a 128G computer that can take 12 megapixel photos, 2436 x 1125 video, has a built in GPS, can stream full length movies and is also a telephone that can fit in your pocket, you would have been laughed into oblivion. It's this same type of technology jump that is now going into an airframe and most people cannot conceptualize this as they still see a conventional jet fighter when they look at the F-35.

That is actually my industry. I was a software developer for about 30 years. Some of the scariest anecdotes I've heard about the F-35 have to do with the software. Lockheed brags about the millions of lines of code, but that doesn't sound so great from a programming point of view.

I hope they work it out. For all our sakes. The way things are going we may really need it.

S

 

[FLYBOYJ]

Yes sorry, it was interservice so there were USAAF and Navy people there, but mostly Navy. The first guys I spoke to were F-15 pilots.
At a certain level officers become political.

Agree!!!

That was the impression I got. From the F-15 guys too even though some of their airframes were so old.

And they continue to age, an argument for more F-22s

I'm not just talking about the really tricky compressibility problems. Some of the electrical system issues and the cockpit heating could and should have been improved much more quickly.

Totally disagree and if you understand how the aircraft was built and deployed you'll find those improvements were actually made pretty rapidly. Many of the P-38s sub systems were designed based on government specifications. Lockheed did not have a free rein to make changes at will. (some things never change) The first P-38 mission over Europe occurred in late 1943, while the first P-38Js were just starting to be built. Explore how you heat a twin engine aircraft cockpit through heat exchangers and ducting and you can see why this was not an easy fix but it was done within the first year of combat. Combine that effort on a moving production line and I think the time span was very reasonable. Again the aircraft was designed and built in Southern California and although it was designed as a high altitude interceptor, no one could have envisioned in 1937/ 38, what type of mission the P-38 would be flying over Europe 5 years in the future.

The P-38 was deployed over the Aleutians. No complaints there!

But back to the main point

That is actually my industry. I was a software developer for about 30 years. Some of the scariest anecdotes I've heard about the F-35 have to do with the software. Lockheed brags about the millions of lines of code, but that doesn't sound so great from a programming point of view.

I hope they work it out. For all our sakes. The way things are going we may really need it.

S

Then you should understand what was being attempted with this aircraft. With 3 full running production lines and over 550 aircraft being built, there's no doubt in my mind that this program will be successful despite errors by the contractor and government, but that's nothing new!

 

[SaparotRob]

Could F-22 production resume? IF the documentation was saved would it be possible to recreate the jigs, forms and necessary tooling?

 

[FLYBOYJ]

Could F-22 production resume? IF the documentation was saved would it be possible to recreate the jigs, forms and necessary tooling?

Understand the first priority to re-open a production line is tooling, as you say "jigs." From what I understand all tooling and production documentation belongs to the US government and is currently being stored. Some on here may have more information on this.

 

[SaparotRob]

Understand the first priority to re-open a production line is tooling, as you say "jigs." From what I understand all tooling and production documentation belongs to the US government and is currently being stored. Some on here may have more information on this.

I'm impressed that someone had the foresight to store that stuff. I asked because of what happened with the Rocketdyne F-1.

 

[cvairwerks]

Estimated cost to bring all the jigs, fixtures and other tooling out of storage and restart the F-22 production line is in excess of 2 billion dollars, as of about 4 years ago, plus you need close to a million square feet of floor space. That's before you even drop a dime on materials and long lead items. Certain things within the F-22 needs went out of production right at the end of the program, so you need to either update designs and all the testing that goes with that, or spend the $ to restart those production items. Certain bulkheads can only be formed in one location in the US and there is probably about a 48 month wait to get into presses there.

Data storage and a final update to the late production standards and prep for storage of all the tooling was part of the production contract.

 

[Schweik]

Given that the F-35 seems to be evolving into a strike aircraft and kind of a multirole stealth missile / drone control center, there may actually be a niche for the F-22 and 2 billion, in light of many other recent expenditures (military and otherwise), may not be beyond the pale in terms of budget. Nor the $20 billion or whatever it would cost to actually build some. I'd also throw in another 50% or so to come up with some modernization / improvements. Certainly they can upgrade the computer software.

I can think of many other things Uncle Sam pays for right now that I'd be willing to 'sacrifice' in exchange for a couple more Fighter Groups of F-22s.

Totally disagree and if you understand how the aircraft was built and deployed you'll find those improvements were actually made pretty rapidly. Many of the P-38s sub systems were designed based on government specifications. Lockheed did not have a free rein to make changes at will. (some things never change) The first P-38 mission over Europe occurred in late 1943, while the first P-38Js were just starting to be built. Explore how you heat a twin engine aircraft cockpit through heat exchangers and ducting and you can see why this was not an easy fix but it was done within the first year of combat. Combine that effort on a moving production line and I think the time span was very reasonable. Again the aircraft was designed and built in Southern California and although it was designed as a high altitude interceptor, no one could have envisioned in 1937/ 38, what type of mission the P-38 would be flying over Europe 5 years in the future.

The P-38 was deployed over the Aleutians. No complaints there!

But back to the main point

By coincidence, the 1st Fighter group, which is one of the few currently still equipped with F-22s, was one of the first flying P-38s in WW2. Their first action against German targets in the MTO was in November 1942. Already at that point they were experiencing serious problems with overloaded electrical systems, lack of cockpit heating, roll rate and compressabilty which plagued that aircraft for the first year and a half or so of it's combat life, ultimately preventing it from being more widely used when they did in fact sort most of the problems out (I think a P-38L is a pretty badass fighter).

I hear what you are saying about Lockheed not having that much leeway, but Corporate defense contractors were not exactly wallflowers in WW2 any more than they are today. They have plenty of sway and for whatever reason, between the Army, the Federal Government, and Lockheed*, they didn't react to the problems fast enough. Putting in a second generator could have happened a lot quicker for example.

(* and her various other subcontractors - Allison for the engines, G.E. for the turbo, whoever made the propellors, whoever made the cannon etc. etc.)

I think it's a beautiful design. They overcame incredible obstacles to make it arguably the only truly effective twin engined day-fighter of the war. Nor is it the only success story by Lockheed during the war. The humble Lockheed Hudson, developed from the Civilian Super Electra, probably contributed more to the overall war-effort than a whole fleet of sexy late war fighter or bomber designs.

But with the Lightning it was almost a bridge too far. Something was wrong some things were wrong, that didn't get corrected fast enough. Yes it's a big ask, but other projects both in the US and overseas were improved more quickly. To be fair, many weren't and many never did get fixed the way the P-38 did. I just think they could have got it up to the (enormous) design potential quickly enough.

In the Aleutians they were mostly chasing Submarines and the occasional Japanese flying boat or float plane fighter. They didn't get attacked from above by Bf 109s so they didn't need to fight at 27,000 ft.

 

[Schweik]

Lets also not forget, specific programs aside Lockeed has a history which isn't always so savory

Lockheed bribery scandals - Wikipedia

 

[FLYBOYJ]

By coincidence, the 1st Fighter group, which is one of the few currently still equipped with F-22s, was one of the first flying P-38s in WW2. Their first action against German targets in the MTO was in November 1942. Already at that point they were experiencing serious problems with overloaded electrical systems, lack of cockpit heating, roll rate and compressabilty which plagued that aircraft for the first year and a half or so of it's combat life, ultimately preventing it from being more widely used when they did in fact sort most of the problems out (I think a P-38L is a pretty badass fighter).

MTO - still relatively warm weather. By December P-38s were operating in the Pacific. Issues but they were succeeding.

I hear what you are saying about Lockheed not having that much leeway, but Corporate defense contractors were not exactly wallflowers in WW2 any more than they are today. They have plenty of sway and for whatever reason, between the Army, the Federal Government, and Lockheed*, they didn't react to the problems fast enough. Putting in a second generator could have happened a lot quicker for example.

Agree with that but...

(* and her various other subcontractors - Allison for the engines, G.E. for the turbo, whoever made the propellors, whoever made the cannon etc. etc.)

And who controlled the subcontractors you mentioned? The government! Everything you mentioned was Government Furnished Equipment (GFE). Although incorporated into the design, there was a level of bureaucracy that has to be dealt with between prime and subcontractor when dealing with GFE (as it is today). That would roll back to your 2nd generator comment.

I think it's a beautiful design. They overcame incredible obstacles to make it arguably the only truly effective twin engined day-fighter of the war. Nor is it the only success story by Lockheed during the war. The humble Lockheed Hudson, developed from the Civilian Super Electra, probably contributed more to the overall war-effort than a whole fleet of sexy late war fighter or bomber designs.

Agree

But with the Lightning it was almost a bridge too far. Something was wrong some things were wrong, that didn't get corrected fast enough. Yes it's a big ask, but other projects both in the US and overseas were improved more quickly. To be fair, many weren't and many never did get fixed the way the P-38 did. I just think they could have got it up to the (enormous) design potential quickly enough.

Some points I agree but understand again, this aircraft was never designed for many of the rolls it fulfilled. No more than 70 were ever envisioned by those who developed the aircraft.

In the Aleutians they were mostly chasing Submarines and the occasional Japanese flying boat or float plane fighter. They didn't get attacked from above by Bf 109s so they didn't need to fight at 27,000 ft.

It was just as treacherous, there were fighters in theater and sometimes some cockpit temps on the ground in the Aleutians were what was experienced at altitudes in the P-38in the ETO!

Fog of War: Aerial Combat in the Aleutian Islands

 

[FLYBOYJ]

Lets also not forget, specific programs aside Lockeed has a history which isn't always so savory

Lockheed bribery scandals - Wikipedia

As previously posted - Lockheed was doing nothing different than other contractors, especially the Europeans. They were just dumb enough to get caught!

 

[DerAdlerIstGelandet]

Could F-22 production resume? IF the documentation was saved would it be possible to recreate the jigs, forms and necessary tooling?

Short answer...

No.

That is all I can say as well. I wish I could though...lol

Anything that is not classified is already on the web. Feel free to look it up. I am not allowed to go into more details. I know that sounds cliche, but I won't risk my position over it.