The Falklands

[CharlesBronson]

CB, you needed an LOL after that post. I know you better.

Not sure what "LOL" means. If you are pointing that my post was a joke, well is not a joke I am merely describing a hipotetical situation. The HMS invincible attack story is a good story wich includes 2 good pilots killed (that difinately is no joke), you cant blame the people here for believing in what the surviving pilots said. Most of the narration of the attacks against the Royal navy could be (more or less) being confirmed in british sources, is not the case with the HMS Invincible.
If you ask me, well some years ago I was sure, but today I have several doubts on it.

 

[Glider]

The fog of war is every bit as thick now, as its ever been. I do not blame the pilots for thinking what they saw or the people of Argentina in believing them.

The story i don't believe, is the ship coming home from the Falkland with a big hole in the side covered by a flag. It wouldn't be seaworthy for such a voyage and would have been patched up before sailing.

 

[CharlesBronson]

The fog of war is every bit as thick now, as its ever been. I do not blame the pilots for thinking what they saw or the people of Argentina in believing them.

The story i don't believe, is the ship coming home from the Falkland with a big hole in the side covered by a flag. It wouldn't be seaworthy for such a voyage and would have been patched up before sailing.

Could be as long the hole is well above the flotation line, well...just an idea maybe not , is not my area, I live 1100 km far from the sea you know.

 

[woljags]

sorry i saw this with my own eyes and it was above the waterline on the super structure bridge area and it was not a carrier

 

[parsifal]

At the time the RAN was considering purchase of the Invincible. it was deferred until after the flaklands war, and eventually cancelled when the Hawke labor Govt won the election in late '83.

Just after the Invincible returned, an australian survey team went over the ship. i saw their report....ther was no mention of missile damage, no mention of major repairs. the ship was in good condition, though in need of refit after her operations in the Sth Atlantic.

Claims of a missile hit on this ship are not supported by the observations of independant witnesses.

 

[DerAdlerIstGelandet]

I may be wrong, but my understanding is that claims that the Invincible was damaged by missile fire are wrong. There are even pictures of the ship returning home with no damage to it.

There were however several destroyers that were damaged by bombs and missiles. Maybe that is what our friend above saw with the flag draped over it?

 

[parsifal]

yes, almost certainly one of the Destroyers

 

[Glider]

I am certain that it wasn't a carrier, they were well protected and were not hit. As for damage I do not buy it, that any ship would sail the whole of the North and South Atlantic with a large hole in the side. Its a dangerous and stupid thing to do

Ships were damaged but there were repair facilities in the area for emergecy repairs and the Assention Islands for more extensive repairs before making it back to the UK. The only ship I can think of that would probably have come home with significant damage is HMS Glamorgan which was hit in the side of the Hanger by an Exocet. However this wasn't a hole in the hull and wouldn't impact her ability to sail, and might not have been patched. However that is only a guess. There are probably some photos of her returning around which would confirm things one way or the other.

I do not doubt that you believe what you think you saw, but I also doubt that it was actually there.

If you want an example of what can be done to repair a ship after combat you could do worse than look at pictures of HMS Exeter when she arrived back in the UK after fighting the GS. Its amazing what can be done to avoid bad publicity.

Just found the photo, pretty impressive but no flag. Have you any idea which ship it was or where you were when you saw the ship

 

[woljags]

i'm sorry please read my post again i have said it was not a carrier and it was on the super structure,ie not on the water line,it was a ship shaped like this but to not believe an eye witness because your photo doesn't show what i know was there,come on

 

[DerAdlerIstGelandet]

I am not denying what you saw. I am only stating that I do not believe that Argentina damaged the Invincible.

 

[Glider]

i'm sorry please read my post again i have said it was not a carrier and it was on the super structure,ie not on the water line,it was a ship shaped like this but to not believe an eye witness because your photo doesn't show what i know was there,come on

There is a misunderstanding on my part. The picture does show the damage, its the big black area just forward of the rear radar. My incorrect understanding was that the hole you described was in the hull but we seem to agree that it wasn't. I would suggest that the Glamorgan is the only vessel that fits the description you gave.

I worked with someone whose son was on HMS Glamorgan and am glad to say he wasn't hurt. She was as you would expect, as worried as hell when the first news of the hit came in.

 

[nuuumannn]

Glider, you're right, the ship in the photo is the Glamorgan, which was hit by a land launched Exocet in the aircraft hangar. That explains the blackness. She was nicknamed "The Glamorous Organ" in service!

COULD SOME BRITISH CITIZEN EXPLAIN THIS TO THIS ARGENTINE?

Are you asking why the Brits fought for the Falklands and not Hong Kong? Hong Kong was returned to China because it belonged to them and Britain had it "on loan", if you like. The Falklands is waaay more complicated, but putting it bluntly, the Argentine government attempted to forcibly take the Falklands without the islanders' consent. Galtieri's government did not ask the islanders what they wanted. The British government did, and their reply was, as it is now, to be British. The islanders are British; they eat fish and chips, speak English, have peely wally white skin not designed for sunny climes; Stanley is like some small town in Essex or in any of Britain's Home counties.

As an aside, you could argue that Thatcher's motives for launching Corporate were more than just the honour of the Islanders! She got back into power based on the war, she wouldn't have otherwise!

I apologise if I am being too abrupt, but my intention is not to personally offend. What I have written here is how it is, however, without agenda (I'm not actually British) or reason to upset our Argentine friends, or anyone else on this forum.

 

[nuuumannn]

On another matter; y'all might find this of interest. This is an account of the Avro Vulcan bomber raids designed to disable Argentine radars on the island.

Part One

Thirty years ago on 2 April 1982 Argentine amphibious forces embarked ashore and wrested control of Stanley, the principal town in the Falkland Islands from the small British military garrison there. Realising that effective air support was a necessity in the retaking of the desolate, far flung island colony, the RAF chiefs quickly drew up a plan to utilise their long range bomber units, at the time in the throes of disbandment.

The use of the Vulcan, the last of the 'V' bombers still in its intended role – the Victors were undertaking in-flight refuelling, a less glamorous but no less skilled occupation, was fraught with the potential for failure. If successful, the rewards were numerous; their deployment meant the direct application of enormous fire power on pin-point targets, not to mention the psychological impact the big bomber's presence would have on the enemy.

Surviving at Scotland's National Museum of Flight, Vulcan B Mk.2 XM597 flew a 6,800 mile round trip from Wideawake airfield on Ascension Island, to fire AGM-45A Shrike anti-radar missiles at Argentine radar installations deployed on the Falklands on two separate sorties. Although overshadowed by the achievements of fellow Falklands War veteran Vulcan B.2 XM607, which became the only 'V' Bomber to have dropped bombs in anger after disabling Stanley Airport's runway with a well placed stick of bombs, XM597 led an active service life, incorporating some notable firsts and lasts for the type.

Completed in 1963 as the sixty-first Vulcan built, XM597 was the first to be modified on the production line for carrying the cancelled Douglas GAM-87A Skybolt Air Launched Ballistic Missile, and the last to be fitted out for carrying the Avro Blue Steel stand-off nuclear missile. Although selected as one of five Vulcans for long range air raids during the Falklands War, XM597's role in weapons trials prior to its operational debut was vital for the use of the Vulcan in that conflict. It was an unscheduled stopover in Brazil that earned it lasting notoriety, however. This event in the aircraft's history is discreetly evident today, recorded as a Brazilian flag painted on the port side of its nose, next to two missile symbols denoting operations flown during Operation "Corporate", Great Britain's plan to re-take the Falkland Islands.

At the time of the Argentine invasion of the Falklands, the Vulcan was in the twilight of its career and a reduction in numbers of serviceable aircraft had already begun. After examination of the existing Vulcans still in service, ten were initially selected for Operation "Black Buck", the long range bombing offensive against Argentine controlled Port Stanley Airfield. This number was eventually narrowed down to five suitable aircraft; XL391, XM597, XM598, XM607 and XM612.

Criteria for selection to undertake Black Buck raids included the incorporation of Skybolt modifications, the fitting of functional in-flight refueling equipment and that each aircraft had to be powered by the 18,000 lb st thrust Bristol Siddeley Olympus 301 powerplant. Each Vulcan was fitted with two Delco Carousel Inertial Navigation System (INS) units removed from stored British Airways' Vickers VC.10s.

Because much equipment had already been disposed of by the Vulcan units, in the frantic rush to prepare for deployment, museums and scrap yards were approached in the search for serviceable supplies. Vulcans already in museums were robbed of their workable refueling probes and any other equipment that could be used in support of the Black Buck aircraft.

On 29 April 1982, twenty-seven days after the Argentine invasion, XM597 departed RAF Waddington in Lincolnshire as reserve aircraft for XM598 and XM607 on their 4,100-mile flight to Wideawake Airfield, Ascension Island in the mid Atlantic Ocean, roughly half way between the United Kingdom and the Falkland Islands. XM597 returned to Waddington later that day.

This was to be the pattern for each Black Buck raid flown from Wideawake; a primary aircraft set off, followed by a reserve, fully equipped to carry out the mission if the primary aborted. If all checked out aboard the primary, the reserve returned to Wideawake after several hours flying time. Each raid was to be flown by a single Vulcan due to the logistics of the refueling effort, requiring as many as fifteen Handley Page Victor K.2 tankers to ensure the attacking and support aircraft were fully fueled during the marathon incursion.

Throughout April and May 1982, XM597 carried out weapons trials for the possible carriage of laser guided bombs and AS.37 Martel TV guided missiles on makeshift pylons constructed from metal girders discovered lying about at Waddington. The pylons were fitted to hardpoints initially incorporated into the Vulcan's wings for the carriage of the Skybolt missile. The plumbing for the cooling and electronic systems for the canceled American weapon housed the cabling for the carriage of stores under the wings.

Hastily designed by Squadron Leader Chris Pye, Waddington's mechanical and engineering officer, the under wing pylons subsequently became known as "Pye pylons". These were fitted to the Vulcans after refinement at RAF St Athan for operations, although based on Sqn Ldr Pye's designs. Aside from those still fitted to XM597, the Museum of Flight holds an original set of Pye pylon 'prototypes' built at Waddington.

Eagle-eyed observers notice that the port wing pylon fitted to the Vulcan is larger than its opposite under the starboard wing. This is because it was intended that the Vulcans carry an AN/ALQ-101 E-10 ECM pod, known as the "Dash Ten", on the smaller pylon and a Martel on the other. In RAF use by Blackburn Buccaneers, the Dash Ten ECM pod was capable of jamming modern US supplied Argentine search radars, whereas the elderly "Red Shrimp" radar jamming equipment located in the Vulcan's bulbous tail section was not considered powerful enough to do so.

During trials, both laser guided bombs and Martels were dropped from the aircraft; three 1,000 lb High Explosive laser guided bombs were carried internally or a single Martel was carried externally. On 4 May the first flight carrying a single Martel round and a Dash Ten pod was made. The next day, XM597 carried out the first live firing trial with a Martel (sans warhead) at the Aberporth Firing Range in Wales. Despite these efforts, neither the Martel, nor the Dash Ten pod were deployed for Black Buck operations because of concerns over their performance after long hours exposed to the cold at high altitude.

Laser guided weapons were not carried by Vulcans during the Black Buck raids either, but due to the Suppression of Enemy Air Defences (SEAD) operations required for successful attacks against Port Stanley Airfield, AGM-45A Shrike anti-radar missiles were covertly supplied by the United States at the beginning of the conflict. Fuel tanks were fitted in the Vulcans' bomb bay when carrying the Shrikes, reducing the number of refueling points required on these missions.

 

[nuuumannn]

Part Two:

XM597 arrived at a busy Wideawake airfield on 27 May and immediately she was readied for her first operation. Black Buck Four took place on the night of 28 May with XM597 as primary aircraft and XM598 as reserve. Crewing XM597 was Sqn Ldr Neil McDougall (captain), Flg Off Chris Lackman (co-pilot), Flt Lts Dave Castle (nav-radar), Barry Smith (nav-plotter) and Rod Trevaskus (air electronics officer). Since Vulcan pilots had abandoned in-flight refueling practice by 1982, a sixth crewmember was shoehorned into the confines of the Vulcan's five-place cabin to visually aid in this delicate operation. XM597's sixth crewman was Flt Lt Brian Gardner.

Carrying a single Shrike under each wing, '597's role was the destruction of the American supplied Westinghouse AN/TPS-43 search radar, which had been providing support to Argentine strike aircraft attacking the British Task Force. BB4 was aborted five hours after departure when one of the supporting Victor tanker's in-flight refueling Hose Drum Units failed.
Two days later, on the night of 31 May/1 June, Black Buck Five was launched, again a SEAD mission with '597 as primary, coordinated with a Harrier strike on Port Stanley Airfield. An 801 Squadron, Royal Navy Sea Harrier from the aircraft carrier HMS Invincible provided top cover. Flt Lt Dave Castle recounted the raid some years later;

"…At 200nm from the Falklands, and after refueling five times en-route from a fleet of Victor tankers, XM597 descended to 300ft above the sea and ingressed to Port Stanley airfield at 300kts. At just under 40nm, she climbed to 16 000ft and attempted to locate the TPS-43 radar with both active and passive sensors (H2S radar and ALQ-18228 Radar Warning Receiver). A game of 'cat and mouse' ensued between the Vulcan crew and the Grupo 2 VYCA crew of the TPS-43 radar."

"After 40 minutes XM597's crew successfully located the TPS-43 mobile radar with some degree of certainty and ripple fired its Shrike missiles, one of which impacted 10 metres from the target, inflicting minor blast damage to the radar's waveguide assembly. The TPS-43 radar was then wisely shut down by the Argentinian crew who feared further attack, which then allowed RAF Harriers to attack Port Stanley relatively unopposed."

Over the combat area a 'hostile' airborne intercept radar target was tracked, but nothing else was heard. The Vulcan returned to Wideawake precisely 16 hours later, having just flown the longest air strike in history; it remained so until bettered by Boeing B-52 Stratofortresses during Operation Desert Storm nine years later. Since the results of BB5 were deemed inconclusive however, Sqn Ldr McDougall and crew were told they would have to do it all again.

The same mission, aircraft and crew was specified for Black Buck Six on 2/3 June, but there would be no Sea Harrier top cover on this raid. This time four Shrikes were carried; each under-wing pylon was fitted with a cradle to carry two missiles each. Two of the missiles were optimised for attacking the TPS-43 radars, with the other two programmed for targets of opportunity, such as the Sky Guard fire control radars aiding the Oerlikon Anti-Aircraft Artillery (AAA).

During this raid the Argentine radar operators were alerted to the presence of the Vulcan and they switched off their search radars when the aircraft was on approach to the islands. After 'loitering' overhead for forty minutes unsuccessfully attempting to entice the TPS-43 into action, Sqn Ldr MacDougall decided to take a risk by descending from the safe altitude of 16,000 feet to within range of the Oerlikon AAA. This ploy worked and the Vulcan was illuminated by a Sky Guard unit. Two Shrikes were fired and the radar was destroyed. Four Argentine radar operators were killed.

After further unsuccessful taunting of the TPS-43 into activity, XM597 then made a hasty departure for the refueling point that would take the aircraft home, as its fuel situation was critical. An RAF Nimrod supplied guidance for rendezvous with the Victor tanker for the last refueling before reaching Ascension Island. On the first prod of the Vulcan's probe into the Victor's trailing basket, a loud bang was heard from the cockpit and fuel sprayed all over the windshield until dispersed by the slipstream. The tip of the probe had fractured, preventing further reception of fuel by the Vulcan.

The hapless crew found themselves in dire straits, as there wasn't enough aboard for the journey back to Ascension. Realising the predicament they were in, Flg Off Chris Lackman did some hasty calculations and recommended that they fly at an altitude of 43,000 feet for a more economic fuel consumption by the thirsty Olympus engines.

Flt Lt Castle later recalled;

"…There were no pre-arranged or recognised diversions and the crew's brief was to ditch the aircraft should the final refueling RV fail. Reluctant to ditch XM597 in the South Atlantic the crew elected to climb to 43 000ft for best range/endurance performance and headed west towards South America (and Brazil). Before entering Brazilian airspace the unused Shrikes had to be jettisoned to prevent any potential embarrassment to the British Government and Brazilian authorities should land-fall be made. Unfortunately, one missile 'hung-up', which was to create additional problems later. Before the aircraft could resume heading for the Brazilian coast, the Vulcan was then turned onto a southerly heading to avoid a small fishing fleet, exacerbating further the fuel dilemma."

"After de-pressurising at 43,000ft and jettisoning secret documents and film through the crew escape hatch, XM597 then descended to around 20,000ft. Fortunately, XM597 was able to unwittingly evade a pair of Força Aérea Brasiliera F-5s that had been scrambled to intercept it."

A serious problem arose when sensitive documents were put in a canvas hold-all and hurled out the underside door; on closing, the door refused to seal, preventing full pressurization of the cabin and forcing the occupants to breathe pure oxygen. This had the effect of making the crew's voices (in the words of Sqn Ldr McDougall) "…sound like Donald Ducks!", which made communication with Brazilian Air Traffic Controllers considerably difficult! Contact was made with Rio de Janeiro 250 nautical miles out on a VHF distress frequency.

"With insufficient fuel for a procedural instrument approach into Rio's Galeão International Airport, XM597 was flown to the overhead where it commenced a spiral descent and visual approach. The aircraft was landed with only 2,000 lbs of fuel remaining in the tanks, insufficient for a missed approach procedure and visual circuit in a Vulcan."

On landing at Galeão Airport, the wayward Vulcan was immediately impounded by the Brazilian authorities. The crew was given the option to leave, but they decided to remain, although they were not allowed to leave the air base without escort, as they had no passports or documentation with them.

The next day, news of the Vulcan's internment in Brazil had reached the front page of newspapers around the world, causing much embarrassment to the British government as the aircraft was still carrying live ammunition; the Shrike missile that refused to jettison from its pylon. On landing the aircrew hung their anoraks over the missile to shield it from press photographers, who appeared en-masse shortly after the aircraft's arrival.

One of the conditions of the release of the aircraft and its crew was that it was not to take any further part in Operation Corporate; the Brazilians also stipulated that the Shrike missile was to remain in Brazil. Initially the Brazilians incorrectly identified it as a "Sidewinder", and to hide the aircraft's true operational role, the British crew played along with this. One Brazilian newspaper article reporting the incident showed a photograph of the Vulcan with the weapon on the pylon circled and identified in the caption as a; "míssil ar-ar Sidewinderh.

The aircraft and crew remained with their Brazilian hosts for seven days before returning to Ascension on 9 June, the Shrike missile staying behind as requested. Three days later XM597 departed Wideawake Airfield for RAF Waddington, its brief part in the Falklands War over. For his sterling leadership during the Black Buck raids, Sqn Ldr MacDougall was awarded the Distinguished Flying Cross.

Some months after the cessation of hostilities in the South Atlantic, XM597 took part in an historic moment on 17 December 1982; the last operational Vulcan scramble before the type's retirement as a bomber. Seven aircraft took part in the momentous occasion before 44 Squadron's disbandment as the last active V Bomber unit. Later that day, XM597, accompanied by three other Black Buck Vulcans, XL391, XM607 and XM612, carried out a farewell flight around former Vulcan stations Coningsby, Cottesmore, Finningley, Scampton and back to Waddington.

After an illustrious RAF career spanning some twenty years, XM597 was sold to the Royal Museum of Scotland in April 1984. Piloted by Sqn Ldr Bill Burnett, the infamous delta bomber flew into East Fortune Airfield, her last resting place, on the twelfth of that month. A large crowd of well wishers turned out to see her final landing at East Fortune, including Sqn Ldr McDougall DFC, the aircraft's former commander during the Black Buck raids that thrust her into the limelight as one of only two Vulcans to drop its weapons in anger.

 

[pbfoot]

I was in Goose where the RAF did its lo level training when the Falklands occured and it didn't take very long til we had no Victors or Vulcans on the ramp I wish I knew what skin numbers the birds were or if they took part in the attack . For those of you not familiar Goose Bay was where they did their lo level training it had an area about the size of W Germany (before they cheaped out to use that little valley in Wales) and the only real area that could not be used was the area where the migratory caribou were transiting

 

[CharlesBronson]

Those missile signs near to our flag still make me nervous, thank for the aditional info, I did posted some on Black Buck earlier (cant remember wich page though)

do you want to know how is like being hit by a Sea harrier Sidewinder "L" and survive ?

in here C.N (ret) Philippi (navy a-4q shot down 21th may 1982 after striking HMS Ardent) told his story (english subtitles)


View: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4uWNrH7Pm4I

 

[Matt308]

Not sure what "LOL" means. If you are pointing that my post was a joke, well is not a joke I am merely describing a hipotetical situation. The HMS invincible attack story is a good story wich includes 2 good pilots killed (that difinately is no joke), you cant blame the people here for believing in what the surviving pilots said. Most of the narration of the attacks against the Royal navy could be (more or less) being confirmed in british sources, is not the case with the HMS Invincible.
If you ask me, well some years ago I was sure, but today I have several doubts on it.

CB, you damn well know what LOL means. I have no dog in the fight of the revisionist history of the Falkland's War. However, to imply that a warship returning to port with a drastic war wound is to be mocked by her inherent "HMS Invincible" moniker is beneath you. You are a far better forum member than that. Let's chalk this misunderstanding up to my langauage barrier with your post, for your ability to command two different languages is far beyond my capabilities.

Carry on...

 

[Readie]

Are you asking why the Brits fought for the Falklands and not Hong Kong? Hong Kong was returned to China because it belonged to them and Britain had it "on loan", if you like. The Falklands is waaay more complicated, but putting it bluntly, the Argentine government attempted to forcibly take the Falklands without the islanders' consent. Galtieri's government did not ask the islanders what they wanted. The British government did, and their reply was, as it is now, to be British. The islanders are British; they eat fish and chips, speak English, have peely wally white skin not designed for sunny climes; Stanley is like some small town in Essex or in any of Britain's Home counties.

Nicely said.
30 years later and the issues are still there and the sabers still being rattled....
The biggest irony is that in 1981 very few Brits even knew where the Falklands where as they were hardly everyday news.
But, with a warhorse like Thatcher in charge we were not going to surrender sovereignty of the Falklands.
Spin forward to 2012... will Cameron take the same stance?
Time will tell.
John

 

[parsifal]

I find thatsadly ironic. Whatever her other and subsequent failings. Thatcher was an effective war leader. She managed to take the nation from blissful ignorance and apathy over the islands and turn the Argentaine invasion into a searing national issue.

Today, Cameron has an enormous advantage relative to Thatcher.....people are well aware of the islands, and have not really forgiven the Argentines. The country is more well postured for war or at least resistance than it was in 1981. Yet somehow I have my doubts about Cameron. I doubt he has the necessary fortitude and conviction to repeat what thatcher did....

 

[nuuumannn]

Hi Charles Bronson, that link was terrific. I remember seeing that documentary on telly. Very interesting. I think I read an article in an aviation magazine written by C.N (ret) Philippi.

I remember a trip round Spain I took with a couple of mates of mine and myself back in the mid 1990s, we stayed in a pension in Barcelona and had a few drinks in a bar, where we met two Chilean girls, and an Argentine girl and guy. We all got talking (the Chilean girls were real nice ) and for some reason the Falklands war came up - I swear it wasn't me! It was probably my belligerent Scottish mate Brian, Anyway, the Argentine bloke then went silent and started weeping, which had the effect of stopping the rather free flowing conversation.

He went on to describe how he was a young 16 year old in 1982 and had been conscripted into going to defend the Malvinas. I can't remember what he said he did there, infantry I think, but he said it was a miserable time. The islands were cold - they had no real shelter and the food was dreadful. The weapons they had were hand-me-downs from WW2. He described how at first everyone thought that they were the best because of what they had done, but when they heard that the Royal Navy were on their way, he said he knew that things were getting serious. He said that a lot of the young guys got scared because the RN has such a big reputation in Argentina. He said that the surrender was the most shameful thing he had ever lived through. His story was most compelling and I really felt sorry for the guy. Needless to say, he got a few more rounds thrown his way to help him drown his sorrows. I still remember that night; very poignant.

I never got the Chilean girl either...