I do not know if the Germans actually looked at the P-38 that way but compared to what they facing in thousands of P-47s and P-51s they probably did prefer to see the few P-38s that flew in the ETO.
The Fork-Tailed Devil..History of the P-38
- Thread starter P38 Pilot
- Start date
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evangilder
"Shooter"
The fork tailed devil nickname is a myth. If that nickname first appeared in Stars and Stripes, well then, you have your answer...
-38, it is ok to post someone else's text, but you really should give the proper credit for both the text and pictures. Your posted text came from Lockheed P-38 Lightning
-38, it is ok to post someone else's text, but you really should give the proper credit for both the text and pictures. Your posted text came from Lockheed P-38 Lightning
Jabberwocky
Staff Sergeant
In the introduction to the the Osprey "P-38 Lightning Aces of the MTO ETO" the first paragraph reads:
"Sometime during the course of the war in Europe, German aircrew prisioners of war were surveyed as to the fighter types they would most and least prefer to meet in combat. Not suprisingly, the majority chose the Spitfire as the type they would least like to encounter, whilst the P-38 Lightning was selected as the fighter they would prefer to engage"
So maybe it really was the preferred target
"Sometime during the course of the war in Europe, German aircrew prisioners of war were surveyed as to the fighter types they would most and least prefer to meet in combat. Not suprisingly, the majority chose the Spitfire as the type they would least like to encounter, whilst the P-38 Lightning was selected as the fighter they would prefer to engage"
So maybe it really was the preferred target
- Thread starter
- #25
P38 Pilot
Tech Sergeant
Thanks Gnomey. I just wanted to give a history of the P-38 thats all...
- Thread starter
- #26
P38 Pilot
Tech Sergeant
Besides, some people here have reticuled me about not knowing my facts. I think the P-38 is a great fighter especially its service in the Pacific and if some of you need refreshing, Richard Bong and Tommy Mcguire flew the P-38 and became America's leading aces in WWII.
syscom3
Pacific Historian
P38 Pilot said:
the word is "ridiculed"
And were not making fun of you on this thread. The story (myth) behind "fork tailed devil" needs to be clarified.
P-38 know one redicules your for knowledge that you know, you just dont like being corrected.
Besides as Even put it, you need to source stuff when you take info directly from other peoples works. Otherwise it is called plagerism which guess what can get you sued and even jail time in the United States. You do it at school and you can be suspended or expelled. In College you will be thrown out of school and barred. Most Universities will not even look at you after that. And since it is a federal offense, there is a chance the military will not even look at you anymore, atleast to be an officer.
It would be something like this:
Besides as Even put it, you need to source stuff when you take info directly from other peoples works. Otherwise it is called plagerism which guess what can get you sued and even jail time in the United States. You do it at school and you can be suspended or expelled. In College you will be thrown out of school and barred. Most Universities will not even look at you after that. And since it is a federal offense, there is a chance the military will not even look at you anymore, atleast to be an officer.
It would be something like this:
wmaxt
Staff Sergeant
The name "Forked Tailed Devil" was first reported by Earny Pile in Africa. It's source was a captured German pilot. It could just be that that pilot was cursing the aircraft that shot him down and it was taken further from there by others. However this was also at the same time Stienhoff complaned to Galland that the P-38 was "Clearly superior in speed and maneuverability to his aircraft. Maybe it was true but only at that time and place, who really knows?
The early P-38s had a complex system that took to much time to go from long range cruise to combat power - they were in trouble if caught in a bounce. Inexperienced pilots probably couldn't maneuver very well. The P-38 had a 3-4:1 kill ratio, the P-51s is about 2:1, so calling the P-38 easy pickings and a preferred target is certainly missguided. Another thig is that if it were the prefered target - why do both bomber crews and P-38 pilots stress that often the bombers that were covered by P-38s were bypassed by German fighters?
As I posted elsewhere, The P-38 flew just under 130,000 sorties in Europe. Roughly 30,000 of those were 9th AF. The 8th AF flew the rest, about 100,000 sorties and lost 451 P-38s, original source AAF Statistical Digest internet location of the 451 is 8th Air Force Combat Losses in World War II ETO Against the AXIS Powers . To put a counter point to it the P-51 lost (8th AF only) 2,201 aircraft in Europe. Including the sorties flown by the 9th AF, flew 214,000 sorties. Using the extended number of sorties but not counting the 9th AFs losses (~350) for the P-51 and the smaller number for the P-38 the P-51 still failed to return to base more than twice as often as the P-38. One final point, these are all the combat related losses including training accidents AND the early P-38s teething problems.
wmaxt
The early P-38s had a complex system that took to much time to go from long range cruise to combat power - they were in trouble if caught in a bounce. Inexperienced pilots probably couldn't maneuver very well. The P-38 had a 3-4:1 kill ratio, the P-51s is about 2:1, so calling the P-38 easy pickings and a preferred target is certainly missguided. Another thig is that if it were the prefered target - why do both bomber crews and P-38 pilots stress that often the bombers that were covered by P-38s were bypassed by German fighters?
As I posted elsewhere, The P-38 flew just under 130,000 sorties in Europe. Roughly 30,000 of those were 9th AF. The 8th AF flew the rest, about 100,000 sorties and lost 451 P-38s, original source AAF Statistical Digest internet location of the 451 is 8th Air Force Combat Losses in World War II ETO Against the AXIS Powers . To put a counter point to it the P-51 lost (8th AF only) 2,201 aircraft in Europe. Including the sorties flown by the 9th AF, flew 214,000 sorties. Using the extended number of sorties but not counting the 9th AFs losses (~350) for the P-51 and the smaller number for the P-38 the P-51 still failed to return to base more than twice as often as the P-38. One final point, these are all the combat related losses including training accidents AND the early P-38s teething problems.
wmaxt
And if I recall Pile was a reporter.
As stated it was just a myth.
As stated it was just a myth.
- Thread starter
- #31
P38 Pilot
Tech Sergeant
DerAdlerIstGelandet said:
I understand plagerism. I know not to do it, and I even did a wriiten(typed) report on WWII Tanks and included all of the copyright information I recieved from the books I got them from. Evan is right I should have included it.
You may not think I should be this but I want to become an Officer in the National Guard when im older. So I understand the huge price in Plagerism now.
Wildcat
Major
evangilder said:
Just had a look at that site, funniest part-
"May 4-8 The Battle of the Coral Sea ensues, it is the first of six major battles between opposing aircraft carriers. The Japanese claim victory based on 'points' but the battle is nonetheless an operational and strategic defeat for them. The goal was to capture Port Moseby on New Zealand, offering up an Japanese airbase within striking distance of Australia."
wmaxt
Staff Sergeant
DerAdlerIstGelandet said:
Pile was a top notch correspondant, very respected and would not make something like that up. I don't know if its a myth or not, it really could be either. If it was true it was probably a local thing though.
wmaxt
- Thread starter
- #34
P38 Pilot
Tech Sergeant
wmaxt said:
Thats what I believe happened.
In my opinion, from evidence, I believe the P-38 was called "The Forked-Tailed Devil" from German ground troops who were attacked by the P-38s doing bombing runs over ammo depots, fuel depots, convoys, etc.
P38 Pilot said:
I never said I dont want you to join the military. I just think you dont understand as much as you think you do.
Besides P38 this thread needs to get back on topic....
wmaxt said:
Agreed. As I said before it was probably German ground troops if anything that called them that but the Luftwaffe never did.
- Thread starter
- #37
P38 Pilot
Tech Sergeant
DerAdlerIstGelandet said:
Right. I guess we can all agree that the P-38 was called The Forked Tailed Devil from the ground troops but not the Luftwaffe.
I can agree that if anyone did, it was the ground troops. It very well could have been just one German POW who had a bad day with a P-38 and called it that himself.
evangilder
"Shooter"
The fact is that the only source of that moniker comes from a reporter, who may have heard a POW say it. There is no written documentation in German that mentions that nickname.
Exactly
