The Germans won WWII........

[Sal Monella]

Great point Jank!
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Originally Posted by Jank:

As a pure dogfighter, my vote goes to the Spit Mk. XIV.

By the end of 1943, the Jerries only had to field very short range fighters as they were playing pure defense. The allies had to field long range planes as escorts and just to get to Berlin. There's no free lunch. That capacity for long range came at an expense.

Now, had the Jerries needed longer range fighters to prosecute the war on offense, those same aircraft would have been totally unsuitable.

Hell, take a F4U-4, P-47M or N or even P-51D and fill em up with just enough fuel for a 550 mile range and you will see some hot ships due to the reduced weight.

 

[Bullockracing]

If the P-80 had time to make it to the ETO, the Germans would have had the third version of the 262 out with the engines in the wing roots. Going with the expert-estimated performance gains from this (including an area-rule fuselage) the matchup would have still favored the 262 slightly...

The 162 was more of a stop-gap than a real fighter. There is no account of any air combat involving a 162, either.

 

[KraziKanuK]

Nope, the He-162 pilots were mostly pilots that were trained with gliders and then put in the real thing, why? because there were no time to train them in the real aircraft. Fact.

Henk

You read to much W. Green or copies of what he wrote.

Tell me why did experienced pilots gave up their 190s to go and train on the 162 if only 'glider trained' pilots flew the 162?

In January 1945 the Volksjäger-Erprobungskommando 162 (Evaluation Unit for He 162) was formed with Oberst Heinz Bär in command. They started training in the He 162 at the Rechlin test center, but in April they joined Galland's JV44 at München-Riem. At that point the plane still wasn't considered ready for action, so they were flown very little.

On the 8th of February I./JG1 gave its Fw 109s to II./JG1 and were send to Parchim to begin conversion to the He 162. Parchim is close to the Heinkel factory at Marienhe, but their first aircraft still didn't arrive until the end of the month. On the 7th of April the field was bombed by 134 Flying Fortresses, so on the 9th they left to move to a nearby airfield at Ludwigslust. Less than a week later they moved again, flying north to an airfield at Leck, near the Danish border in Schleswig-Holstein, where they ended the war.

I./JG1 was declared combat-ready on April 23rd, but it had already claimed an RAF fighter on the 19th of April. Feldwebel Günther Kirchner was posthumously credited with the fighter when the captured pilot described the plane that had shot him down, Kirchner had been shot down and killed by another British fighter while returning to Leck. Although other planes would be claimed, this is the only kill for the He 162 that can be confirmed.

On April 20th, the only successful ejection in the 162 took place when Leutnant Rudolf Schmitt ejected from his 162, although no one seems to know why. Four days later Hauptmann Paul-Heinrich Dahne (commander of II./JG1) died when ejecting from his He 162 because the canopy did not come off. On the 2nd of May another victory was recorded by Unteroffizier Rechberger, who shot down an American P-47, and on the 4th Schmitt (unharmed from his ejection) shot down a British Typhoon near Rostock. The next day the war unofficially ended when a cease fire was accepted, and the Leck airfield was taken over by the British on the 8th of May.

II./JG1 left their 190s on the airfield on the 8th of April as they transferred to Rostock-Marienhe to begin their conversion to the He 162. The left Marienhe and joined I./JG1 at Leck on May 2nd to escape the Soviets. The conversion of III./JG 1 was planned to begin in mid-April, but they disbanded on the 24th of April and their personnel were distributed to other units. On May 3rd JG1 was reorganized into two Gruppen, I. Einsatz (Combat) and II. Sammel (Replacement), with a total of about 50 pilots and aircraft. I./JG400 were supposed to be equipped with the 162, but the war ended before they could receive any planes.

The Luftwaffe received a total of something between 120 and 180 He 162A-2s, which were used by I./JG1 and II./JG1 as well as the few that were delivered to JV 44 from Erprobungskommando 162. Many of the delivered planes were lost in accidents, the leading cause being running out of fuel because of the plane's short endurance.

http://www.csd.uwo.ca/~pettypi/elevon/baugher_other/he162_mm.html

 

[Twitch]

The first bunch in JG1 were experienced pilots. What everyone gets off on is the fact that future groups were going to be staffed by glider trained greenhorns and Hitler Youth-types.

And, like Kanuk mentioned there were several combat accounts invloving the 162...

 

[blue swede]

Just as in a mugging, the aggressor always has the advantage of knowing what he is going to do and preparing for it.
The victim has to take the first blows, realize what is happening and react (or catch up).

 

[delcyros]

I second that the He-162 pilots were combat experienced ones and that this plane participated in dogfights. I do not think that the He-162 is a gap-stopper. It was innovative, altough flawed but the best solution for a limited problem to deal with (fighter sweeps and low level ground attacks) in the Luftwaffe arsenal.
Had I to choose a dogfighter in ww2, my money would be on this very plane (as long as range and altitude is no matter of concern).

 

[lesofprimus]

Im agreed 100% with KK and Twitch.... Maybe Erich has some deeper insight into the -162 and combat ops....

 

[Henk]

Twitch that is what I meant. I agree with you.

Henk

 

[carpenoctem1689]

The 162's most dangerous aspects were the lack of proper glues to hold the aircraft together, and only a single, unreliable jet engine. It was only unreliable due to metal qualities and poor workers on the lines building these turbo-jets. Also the aircraft suffered from severe snaking (weaving) at high speeds making it an unstable firing platform, and the original, armed with only two 20mm cannon (the original idea was two mk-108, but the airframe couldnt handle it) it didnt have much firepower or ammunition to speak of. The snaking was temporarily reduced with down-turned wingtips and the nose was to be strengthened to carry the mk-108.

the mk-108 would make it less effective as a fighter though, with about 60rnds per gun and a low muzzle velocity, and only two guns (unlike four on the -262) and more of an interceptor instead of dogfighter/groundattack. Its limited range would prohibit long high level intercept missions. With the two 20mm cannon it would be effective against fighetrs and fighter/bombers, or anything at medium altitude or lower, but i certainly would not want to fly one at 20,000ft, with 30minutes of fuel and 120rounds of ammunition. Also with the engine on the dorsal part of the plane, rear view was almost non-existant (at 500mph its not too much an issue considering not much could catch it) and bailing out would have been a bitch, and i wouldnt want to trust the ejection seats, or glues.

If made out of light alloys, with more reliable engines, it would have been superb. But made out of alot of wood, with improper glues, engine quality and pilots, it was a death trap. Granted ORIGINAL pilots were experienced, but it was, as was stated, to be shifted to glider trained youth (hence the name, PEOPLES FIGHTER/volksjager).

 

[Henk]

True.

Henk

 

[delcyros]

The BMW-003 is not unreliable compared to the Jum0-004, this is wrong.
The BMW-003E was far more reliable than You think. Don´t mix it up with the Jumo-004 B! It was not that sensitive to throttle setting changes (huge advantage over the Jumo), had better hi-alt behavior, a much longer (200 hours) lifetime and even overrew abilities (115% thrust for half a minute). The only disadvantage so far known was that you couldn´t easily restart the engine in flight compared to the Jumo-004. Otherwise it was smaller, lighter and had a better thrust to weight relatio plus reliability advantages.
The MG151/20 is more suited to high speed dogfights than was the low velocity MK 108. The He-162 wasn´t ordered to deal with heavy bombers but with Tiffys and P-47 and soviet low altitude ground attack planes. 2cm weapons are sufficiant for this task, altough some might wish more firepower. Keep in mind that the He-162 still had Revi-16D gunsights and most EZ-42 computing gunsight were allocated for the Me-262 program (2-3 He-162 prototypes actually had EZ-42 and eventually made it to JG1 in april 45).

 

[KraziKanuK]

Granted ORIGINAL pilots were experienced, but it was, as was stated, to be shifted to glider trained youth (hence the name, PEOPLES FIGHTER/volksjager).

At the time the 162 was being introduced that could be said for all LW pilots, they had minumal flight training.

The DH Vampire was partially constructed of wood.

 

[DerAdlerIstGelandet]

Im with Del on most of this. I am not a big fan of the 162 but it was an innovative and good design and still superior to the allied jet aircraft of the time.

 

[Glider]

As a dogfight jet I believe that the 162 was the best plane of the war. As many have stated it lacked the firepower to take on the big bombers but its small size, speed and agility put it well ahead of the 262 and Meteor.

With 162's to take on the fighters and the 262 the bombers this would I believe have been a combination that would have taken some beating.

 

[lesofprimus]

Once the fighter jocks realized how vulnerable the -262 was at takeoff and landing, it was easssssy pickings.... American and British tactics would have overcome the "Jet Age", eventually...

 

[davparlr]

I'm not sure the 162 was around long enough the predict its impact on the war if the war continued. As far as air-to-air, it shot down one, maybe a couple more but the circumstances of the shoot downs are unknown (I understand that in most air to air kills, the opposing aircraft is unaware of the attack, which negates manuevering capability). The design concept seems to have not continued after the war (except maybe the much later F-107, which had the same escape issues as the 162).

 

[Twitch]

As I mentioned before I believe go here and read about the 162 and an Allied pilot's post-war flight assessment http://www.ww2aircraft.net/forum/3234-he-162-a.html

 

[lesofprimus]

Her name was actually Lidiya, and on each side of her YaK-1's cockpit she painted a white lily, which was often confused with a rose.....

 

[Twitch]

Yeah, there are several spellings of her first name and Lidiya is one of them. Her last name is also spelled Litvyak. Top ace Ivan Koshedub has multiple spelling of his name also. Quite perplexing. I've seen the flower artwork on the plane and it's rather indescernable. Probably too much vodka in the artist! Nevertheless she was known as the White Rose of Stalingrad. I go by Bill Hess' 1966 book The Allied Aces of WW II for spellings since they're at hand.

 

[Henk]

Twitch do you have a picture of that flower on her plane please?

Henk