The Greatest Air Battle

[Njaco]

Thanks, Erich and Bill. Thats what I was looking for - individual battles in terms of one force against another. Not neccessarily a campaign but part of a campaign. Those missions you describe are what I was after. Didn't know about them in depth before. Thanks!

 

[Erich]

its reluctance Bill that I even mention the what if as even possible and it was and is about Göttingen. It still does not seem plausible to me except for just a disaster as a turn and LW ground control getting the heavy SturmFw units and high cover of 109's into position. As one IV.Sturm/JG 3 ace mentioned after war, he could not believe that NO US Mustang escort was seen, as he and his gruppe took first shots and shot down 18 B-24's in their first pass tried to get into position for a second rear pass as Mustangs came onto them and his gruppen banked over and got the hell out of that mess.......

September 28th is also another terrible day like Sept. 11 and 12th and October 6th. I mention these unknown dates as they were in smallness LW victories with the suddeness of their attacks, thank GOD for Allied escort to disperse them.

guess I could also go off on a tangent and talk about some rude missions in July/August 44 as well ~

 

[parsifal]

I sure haven't heard of British prisoners being massacred anytime before Dunkirk, at all! A lot of prisoners were taken, but they were treated well by the Germans, an order straight from the top.

I havent heard of any massacres before Dunkirk either, although I have not researched the fates of captured british prisoners in Norway for example.

However the massacres of british prisoners DURING the battle was underway from the 26th. Those that I know about that were perpetrated between 25th May and 1st June include Las paradis, Wormhoudt, Ledringham, Mercier Farm, and Bollengier Farm. I dont know the final casualty figures, but it is more than 500.

None of the massacres were officially sanctioned, but there was some support for them nevertheles, as it was sen as a legitimate means of breaking the British will to resist at Dunkirk. Never mind that they were totally barbaric and totally illegal, didnt seem to bother the germans at all.

 

[Erich]

sorry P but you're getting OT

 

[Soren]

Were they prisoners Parsifal or were they just slaughtered in combat ?

I've tried to research the matter but I can find absolutely nothing about any shooting of British prisoners at or around Dunkirk.

 

[Soren]

sorry P but you're getting OT

Sorry

 

[Erich]

why do we always branch off into the sphere guys and not stay with the topic ?

 

[Soren]

It's simple Erich: People pick out places where they disagree and start discussing them. It's hard to avoid.

But me and Parsifal will take this to another thread.

 

[DerAdlerIstGelandet]

why do we always branch off into the sphere guys and not stay with the topic ?

It is simple Erich. People always get into the same old arguement.

"Germans never ever commited sanctioned war crimes. It is all lies!"

"Dude 294.3355 allied troops were shot against a wall in retaliation to a prisoner escaping on this XX-XXX-XXXX date..."

It never fails to happen. It is very reduntent and stupid...

 

[Erich]

well how about we make a commitment to sty on topic shall we ?



why am I thinking this will be impossible .............

 

[drgondog]

its reluctance Bill that I even mention the what if as even possible and it was and is about Göttingen. It still does not seem plausible to me except for just a disaster as a turn and LW ground control getting the heavy SturmFw units and high cover of 109's into position. As one IV.Sturm/JG 3 ace mentioned after war, he could not believe that NO US Mustang escort was seen, as he and his gruppe took first shots and shot down 18 B-24's in their first pass tried to get into position for a second rear pass as Mustangs came onto them and his gruppen banked over and got the hell out of that mess.......

September 28th is also another terrible day like Sept. 11 and 12th and October 6th. I mention these unknown dates as they were in smallness LW victories with the suddeness of their attacks, thank GOD for Allied escort to disperse them.

guess I could also go off on a tangent and talk about some rude missions in July/August 44 as well ~

E- the Gottingen strike force didn't lose any of the 35 dispatched. Is your thought that the 445th was supposed to go there instead of Kassel and was trying to join them? - entirely possible but that would have been a huge navigation screw up.

the 28th wasn't a great day for 8th either, but 23 losses to fighters for two AD's is a pretty far stretch compared to the day before on one bomb group.

Which ones did you have in mind for more than 10 losses to German Fighters other than August 15 (14 due to GF)? The 4th FG got thumped pretty good on the 18th but other than those two I only see July 7 and August 15 for +10 days to LW Fighters.

 

[claidemore]

I gotta go with Kursk.

Battle was anywhere from 10 days to a month and a half, (German view, Operation Citadel 10 days, Russian view, battle lasted till Charkow/Kharkov fell).
At least 2500 Soviet planes, 3000+ if you count units kept in reserve or on less active fronts
A little over 2000 German planes.
Each side flying as many as 4500 sorties in a day.

Kursk is heralded as a tank vs tank battle, but some of the most important sectors were won by air vs tank. It was the proving ground for the Soviet tactical air/ground cooperation concept, which eventually took them all the way to Berlin.

BoB was important too, but Kursk surpasses it (and probably all others) in scale.

In my opinion Kursk was the greatest air battle of WWII, for numbers of aircraft involved, number of sorties flown, and importance as the pivotal battle on the Eastern Front.

 

[Amsel]

I gotta go with Kursk.

Battle was anywhere from 10 days to a month and a half, (German view, Operation Citadel 10 days, Russian view, battle lasted till Charkow/Kharkov fell).
At least 2500 Soviet planes, 3000+ if you count units kept in reserve or on less active fronts
A little over 2000 German planes.
Each side flying as many as 4500 sorties in a day.

Kursk is heralded as a tank vs tank battle, but some of the most important sectors were won by air vs tank. It was the proving ground for the Soviet tactical air/ground cooperation concept, which eventually took them all the way to Berlin.

BoB was important too, but Kursk surpasses it (and probably all others) in scale.

In my opinion Kursk was the greatest air battle of WWII, for numbers of aircraft involved, number of sorties flown, and importance as the pivotal battle on the Eastern Front.

I agree. The ostfront is not as well known among many N. Americans for obvious reasons. But it was where WWII was decided.

 

[Erich]

Bill:

yes the 445th bg may have been ordered towards Göttingen, but I better leave that thought alone,

the September 11 and 12th raids were brutal

October 6, and 7th

November 2nd

November 26th everyone lost, and the 27th was ugly as well

January 14, 1945


of course I could go back and pull files for July/August of 44 as they were also pretty sad

 

[drgondog]

Bill:

yes the 445th bg may have been ordered towards Göttingen, but I better leave that thought alone,

the September 11 and 12th raids were brutal

October 6, and 7th

November 2nd

November 26th everyone lost, and the 27th was ugly as well

January 14, 1945


of course I could go back and pull files for July/August of 44 as they were also pretty sad

In terms of the battle for air supremacy and relative damage by LW March 6 and April 29, 1944 probably place at the top of combined fighter/fighter and fighter/bomber clashes between emerging 8th AF target escorts and LW deep in Germany. Then April 24 and May 12.

All the ones after that were bloody for one or two groups, but relatively low percent of total force

 

[Erich]

how about January 11, 1944 with 60 bombers shot down

May 28 and 29th, 1944 with over 30 bombers lost each day

right-O Bill on the earlier dates I posted a select 1-3 Bomb Groups picked out and ripped to pieces

 

[drgondog]

how about January 11, 1944 with 60 bombers shot down

May 28 and 29th, 1944 with over 30 bombers lost each day

right-O Bill on the earlier dates I posted a select 1-3 Bomb Groups picked out and ripped to pieces

My measuring stick was any day in which 8th AF BC lost more than 5% or a division lost more than 10% and Jan 11 fits my own designation of a really bad day - I forgot that 60FTR even though about 10 were due to ops issues rather than Luftwaffe. About 180+ were damaged from light to severe. The 8th lost about 13% of the attacking force - IIRC this was worst % for rest of war...

 

[Erich]

I know there is a book in print possibly by Hikkoki pubs over the Jan. 11 44 mission.

have been in touch since 1999 with a Dutch researcher who has found many B-17 parts and of course studied the event as much fell over his homeland, we ascertained that several Bf 110G-2's with Br 21cm rocket launchers hit the lead B-17's of the lead bombers thus upsetting the whole route and time-table of the US attack.

The day time ZG twin engines claimed 18 B-17's and 3 NJG's claimed some 12 B-17's during this day engagement when flying the day op. LW claims were for 91 bombers on the date.

 

[drgondog]

I know there is a book in print possibly by Hikkoki pubs over the Jan. 11 44 mission.

have been in touch since 1999 with a Dutch researcher who has found many B-17 parts and of course studied the event as much fell over his homeland, we ascertained that several Bf 110G-2's with Br 21cm rocket launchers hit the lead B-17's of the lead bombers thus upsetting the whole route and time-table of the US attack.

The day time ZG twin engines claimed 18 B-17's and 3 NJG's claimed some 12 B-17's during this day engagement when flying the day op. LW claims were for 91 bombers on the date.

This is one area of mystery for me. The LW had total control of all possible crash sites except North Sea and Channel and yet the overclaims on bombers in large battles was usually 50-70%. (Of course 8th AF BC overclaims were probably in the 95% range..)

I just went through MECC again for Jan 11.

45 were cited as German Fighters, 3 to MAC with a GAF fighter, 7 due to flak , two to mechanical failure and three to ditchings in which crews were rescued... the latter can be presumed to battle damage - either flak or fighters

 

[Njaco]

Erich and Bill, from those dates you posted which would be the one that you would chose as the most intense, action-packed, incredible from the lot of them? I know Erich helped me with January 11 when I first signed on and that was pretty brutal. I want to get a handle on what specific action you would say interests you the most or that you admire the most from both sides perspective as regarding heorism, intensity, skill or anything that stands out for you.