The Greatest Fighter Jet of All Time.

Which is the Best?


  • Total voters
    281

Ad: This forum contains affiliate links to products on Amazon and eBay. More information in Terms and rules

You sound like an Osprey book. That was only one very simplistic point of view.
I assume they are not known for accuracy?
There was a thing called "RULES OF ENGAGEMENT" that caused many US aircraft to be lost. Tactics at the beginning of the war sucked.
There were a whole bunch of problems such as the fact that, while many of the older pilots were quite skilled in aerial combat, many of the newer pilots weren't as well trained as they should.

If there were any restrictions about BVR combat at the immediate start of the war, they were implemented soon enough (if I recall, there was at least one friendly-fire case).
The problem with the BVR engagement was that it wasn't possible to identify a target by radar-return alone (the exception might have been the Tu-95), and at least some IFF's weren't readable (Assuming Soviet IFF could be read, exports couldn't) which meant you either assumed any aircraft without IFF was an enemy: Something not always a good idea as IFF made detection easier under at least some circumstances (I'm not sure if the IFF system only sent out a return when properly signalled/interrogated, or simply spat out a return when lit up by radar) and, in doing so, increased maximum detection range.

From what I remember, some of our pilots would shut them off when entering enemy airspace. The enemy of course kept theirs on as it helped them determine which blips were theirs and which were not, so it was there interest to keep those on.

The general requirement (it wasn't absolute -- there were "missile free" zones) was to go into visual range to identify one's opponent as hostile wasn't a total problem provided the aircraft had sufficient performance, were manned by crews that were skilled in aerial combat. The F-4 ironically had the ability to use the vertical, and below 15,000-20,000 feet, the agility of the aircraft was quite good (sustained agility was one of the best).

The problem had to do with the fact that most aircraft that were employed as day-fighters and fighter-bombers either had guns, or guns and missiles in either the USAF and USN; USAF dedicated all-weather interceptors usually just had missiles, or a combo of missiles and rockets (the USN's dedicated interceptors prior to the F-4 had provision for guns, as well as rockets and/or missiles). Since the former were used in air-to-air combat, this wasn't really a big deal until the F-4 came around as it was used both as an interceptor and a fighter-bomber.

Had they had a gun and were properly trained, they wouldn't have had much trouble if they ended up inside minimum range; they'd switch to guns and proceed from there. I suppose one could argue further that a combination of tactics (have one pair of planes race in for a sneak-n-peak and then radio the rear pair to fire; switch from finger/fluid-four to loose-deuce/dual-attack), and training (particularly tactics that allow one to gain for separation) would have been just fine as is (that said, it seemed a gun was a nice bonus).


The White House dictated the targets, routes, times, etc. that were used. Then they gave those targets to the Swiss so they could pass them along to NVA.
Is that the sole reason why they were micromanaging things like that? Or was it also some form of penis-waving move by the President to show he was boss?

Mike Wint had mentioned that there were all sorts of problems ranging from
  • Fear of producing a scenario like Korea: I'm not sure I get the point
  • Fear of escalation into WWIII: China didn't have a mutual-defense pact with North Vietnam -- not sure if POTUS knew that or not
  • Diplomats objecting to training of counter-insurgency forces and jungle-warfare experts
  • Fear of being honest with intelligence data because of the fear of being labeled as a possible traitor/useful-idiot: Thus people published data they knew in their heart to be inaccurate, but simply hoped would be understood for what it was
  • Intelligence withholding useful data: Such as the fact that they could read enemy transponders and not relaying that to the fighters, or the fact that they knew the NVA had a guns-hold requirement below 3500 feet.
When allowed to operate without undue intrusion and control by the WH the results were infinitely better (Operation Bolo)
Who did Robin Olds have to blow to get that done?
or Linebacker II which took the cuffs off and brought the NVA back to the table.
Different administration.
An awful lot of those guys died for their country while being stabbed in the back by politicians (not leaders).
Yeah, it's hard to even keep track of the number of ways
  • The NVN being told where and when we were goig to attack: It makes a lot of sense now how they were able to pick so many of our planes off. Supposedly, they were doing it for the purpose of preventing Russian military advisors from being killed, and to convince the NVN that we would not bomb population centers and would insure they could get their people out (while I'm not for bombing population centers to kill people for it's own sake -- I just acknowledge openly that it was our policy in WWII and Korea), I wouldn't mind my enemy not knowing what I'm going to do -- maybe the fear could do something useful.
  • President Nixon via Kissinger sabotaged Johnsons efforts for peace, which could have ended Vietnam by 1969 (even as ineptly as it was being fought)
 
No one. There is a saying in the military that goes, "it's better to ask for forgiveness than permission".
I never served in the military a day, but I know that one... smart move.

Why didn't more people "ask for forgiveness"
 
Last edited:
So I guess an airplane being damaged doesn't count as an aerial victory because it was able to be landed safely?
That's a subject for debate. If an asset is completely destroyed (to include the pilot) or rendered damaged beyond repair upon returning base, it should be considered a kill, however do think an opposing side during time of conflict is going to report that they had "x" amount of aircraft return to base that were scrapped? It was a fact that many MiG-15s were seen running across the Yalu damaged and their ultimate fate remained unknown. At the same token many F-86 drivers claimed kills (with gun camera footage capturing the fight) as their victim flew towards the safety of the Yalu trailing smoke. The MiG-15 had fuel tanks located behind the pilot and along the side of the fuselage (IIRC) and the oil tank was on top of the engine. Unless an incendiary round exploded and ignited these items, when they punctured they just smoked. When the engine was damaged it would also smoke until it came apart.





 
If a pilot knew his acft well, he flew it as long as he could. If he thought he could make it home he flew it back. If he was sure it would go down, he ejected and that confirmed the kill.
 
From what I read and have been told if a chute was seen, it was a kill. Of course, if ejection occurred out of sight from the battle, no kill.
 
Another for the F-15.

That it is still very much a viable aircraft for combat ~45 years later is a testament.

While the F-22 may very well be the "best" or most capable currently, it has not the real frame of reference for combat that the F-15 does. Even as limited as it is compared to the F-4.

I can't vote F-4 when it's best known legacy is "The F-4 Phantom is proof that if you stick enough engine on a garbage truck, it will fly". Although I do love it's lines.
 
Olds didn't bend the rules, he got approval from higher USAF command.
He used a tactic that hadn't been used against the NVAF before.

He had ECM pods usually used by F-105s and used the formation F-105 used when equipped with those pods.
It being a overcast day the only information the VNAF had was what was on their radar screens.
On those radar screens it appeared to be F-105s on a bombing mission, not really easy meat for the NVAF, but something they'd gladly commit a big part of their Mig-21s to.
 
Flyboy:

Thank you for explaining what happens to that F-15, how it continued to fly without the right wing, & where it all took place. That's a popular photo but never found any caption that fully explained what happened.
 
One hopes the F-22 doesn't need to have a combat legacy; I like the people in the service and I'd rather not have any more maimed or killed.

Quite a few of the aircraft listed have served in many conflicts; quite a few jet fighters that have served in combat are not listed (without thinking too hard, I've got at least 8).
I can't vote F-4 when it's best known legacy is "The F-4 Phantom is proof that if you stick enough engine on a garbage truck, it will fly". Although I do love it's lines.

I suspect that a serious analysis will find the F-4's aerodynamics are quite a bit better than a garbage truck -- or a number of its contemporaries. On the other hand, it won't win many beauty contests. The F-14, F-15, F-16, and F-18 are very much reactions to the shortcomings of the Phantom (not least of which was its engines, which were notoriously smokey). On the other hand, a couple of aircraft are on that list that never existed except as prototypes. Interestingly, quite a lot of the avionics development on the F-15 was to get comparable radar and BVR performance to the F-4 without a back-seater.
 
Last edited:
 

Users who are viewing this thread