The Greatest Fighter Jet of All Time.

Skyediamonds · Sep 5, 2019

The original designs of both the F-16 & F-17 were indeed, in competition for a light-weight pure fighter. The (then) F/A-17 morphed into the F/A-18 & its derivatives. I was fortunate enough to crawl all over the original F/A-17 when it was placed on display at the Western Air Museum in Hawthorne, CA. many (really embarrassingly many) years ago. Fantastic plane.

I also recall there were issues with the twin vertical tails & the LEX. I believe the LEX had created turbulence at high alpha flight regimes that lead to the problems with the vertical tails.

XBe02Drvr · Sep 5, 2019

Elvis said:
Well, wait a minute....The F-14 had already replaced the F-4, so how could the F/A-18 replace a fighter that had already been replaced?
...curiouser and curiouser...

This is beginning to sound like a semantics controversy; nitpickers vs broad concepters. The F4 and A7 were "teammates" from Vietnam through the 80s. The arrival of the Tomcat initially complemented rather than replaced the Phantom, as there was a lengthy period of overlap between the two types, and the F14 relegated the F4 to "secondary fighter" role just as the Phantom had done to the Crusader. The Hornet was slotted in as the new secondary fighter, the lower cost alternative to the Topcat dollarsink. As a side benefit, it supplanted the A7 in the light attack role in support of the "heavy" A6. When the A6 fatigued out and the F14 priced out, the Super Hornet became the jack of all trades and master of none, but affordable by all.
Now that's "the world according to Wes", and don't you go messing with it!
Cheers,
Wes

XBe02Drvr · Sep 5, 2019

jetcal1 said:
"he's only enlisted and doesn't know about these matters." He came back a few hours later and gave me a nice dressing down for expressing an opinion.

Of course! Ya gotta keep a tight handle on the information, opinions, and imagery that gets fed to purse string holders and decision makers, and make sure it's all in accordance with the agenda of those who "know about these matters". "You almost upset the applecart there, Son!"
Cheers,
Wes

vandee · Sep 5, 2019

The Crusader was a fighter, not a multi role aircraft. I believe it could actually take out an F-4 Phantom
with no problem. The only other jet that was close would be the F-106 Delta Dart which was a "sleeper". John

XBe02Drvr · Sep 5, 2019

vandee said:
The Crusader was a fighter, not a multi role aircraft. I believe it could actually take out an F-4 Phantom with no problem.

For most of the overlap period between the two aircraft, Phantom crews were not really taught ACM in any serious way. It wasn't until the "Topgun revolution" came along that Phantom crews really learned how to properly handle an agile opponent like the Crusader.
All the instructors who used my trainer had done their initial F4 weapons training exclusively in "bomber intercept" mode, specializing in long range Sparrow shots against BVR radar blips that had sophisticated ECM, and never live firing an actual missile. What little ACM they were exposed to was against other F4s, and restricted by course rules to a sort of choreographed dance using textbook tactics with strict G and Mach limits.(Check out the dogfight scene in "The Great Santini") Entirely foreign to the "no holds barred" nature of an actual dogfight. Naturally, scrappy aggressive Crusader pilots ate them for breakfast.
Cheers,
Wes

jetcal1 · Sep 5, 2019

Elvis said:
Well, wait a minute....The F-14 had already replaced the F-4, so how could the F/A-18 replace a fighter that had already been replaced?
...curiouser and curiouser...

Except for the USS Midway, and USS Coral Sea the Navy VF community had gone all F-14. The F-18 was supposed to be the replacement for the Marine VMFA community F-4 and for the two left over baby carriers until they decommissioned.

jetcal1 · Sep 5, 2019

Skyediamonds said:
The original designs of both the F-16 & F-17 were indeed, in competition for a light-weight pure fighter. The (then) F/A-17 morphed into the F/A-18 & its derivatives. I was fortunate enough to crawl all over the original F/A-17 when it was placed on display at the Western Air Museum in Hawthorne, CA. many (really embarrassingly many) years ago. Fantastic plane.

I also recall there were issues with the twin vertical tails & the LEX. I believe the LEX had created turbulence at high alpha flight regimes that lead to the problems with the vertical tails.

Yep, mid-80's the tails started cracking. The little "plates" you see on top of the fuselage to the side of the turtleback shape the airflow.

Elvis · Sep 5, 2019

XBe02Drvr said:
This is beginning to sound like a semantics controversy; nitpickers vs broad concepters. The F4 and A7 were "teammates" from Vietnam through the 80s. The arrival of the Tomcat initially complemented rather than replaced the Phantom, as there was a lengthy period of overlap between the two types, and the F14 relegated the F4 to "secondary fighter" role just as the Phantom had done to the Crusader. The Hornet was slotted in as the new secondary fighter, the lower cost alternative to the Topcat dollarsink. As a side benefit, it supplanted the A7 in the light attack role in support of the "heavy" A6. When the A6 fatigued out and the F14 priced out, the Super Hornet became the jack of all trades and master of none, but affordable by all.
Now that's "the world according to Wes", and don't you go messing with it!
Cheers,
Wes

Yeah, that makes better sense.
I dont' recall a "secondary fighter" role for the F4, but we could be talking about two different eras.
From what I remember, when the F14 replaced the F4, it took on other roles, most notably, being the vehicle for the "Wild Weasel" program (Thank you Desert Storm) and that seemed to, more or less, "save" the F4 from being decommissioned for, like, another 20 years (?).
You guys who were in the service might have some "inside" information, but what I'm giving you here, is a Civilian's Eye View.
So forgive me if what you remember, as a member of the armed services, is different from the information laid out to a civilian. I guess the news media lied to me.

Barrett · Sep 5, 2019

Criteria??????????

Elvis · Sep 6, 2019

...not driven by a prop....

XBe02Drvr · Sep 6, 2019

Elvis said:
I dont' recall a "secondary fighter" role for the F4, but we could be talking about two different eras.

When the F4, came along and became the Navy's primary fighter, it was considered too heavy and fast for the "small deck" Essex class carriers, which continued to operate the F8, even though it wasn't as fast or long legged as the Phantom. Then along comes the F14, which was considered a bit of a tight fit on the 27Charlie boats ,(FDR, Coral Sea, Midway) so the F4 was retained for their air wings, as well as photorecon and defense suppression (what USAF calls wild weasel). During this time Tomcats were strictly air-to-air fighters, as they had neither equipment nor training for attack missions, and there were plenty of less expensive and less complex aircraft around for that purpose. Then someone got the bright idea of hanging a LANTIRN laser designator system on the F14, and it became the go to option for long-range precision strike missions such as defense suppression.
Cheers,
Wes

soulezoo · Sep 6, 2019

IIRC, the last of the F4 Wild Weasels belonged to the ANG unit in Reno Nevada. I am uncertain when they were retired, but am thinking it wasn't 2011 (20 years after Desert Storm).

F-16's have the Weasel role now.

Elvis · Sep 6, 2019

XBe02Drvr said:
When the F4, came along and became the Navy's primary fighter, it was considered too heavy and fast for the "small deck" Essex class carriers, which continued to operate the F8, even though it wasn't as fast or long legged as the Phantom. Then along comes the F14, which was considered a bit of a tight fit on the 27Charlie boats ,(FDR, Coral Sea, Midway) so the F4 was retained for their air wings, as well as photorecon and defense suppression (what USAF calls wild weasel). During this time Tomcats were strictly air-to-air fighters, as they had neither equipment nor training for attack missions, and there were plenty of less expensive and less complex aircraft around for that purpose. Then someone got the bright idea of hanging a LANTIRN laser designator system on the F14, and it became the go to option for long-range precision strike missions such as defense suppression.
Cheers,
Wes

Ok, I see what you're getting at with the "secondary fighter" term.
Thanks for taking the time to explain that.

Elvis

Fighterguy · Sep 12, 2019

As a correction (and no, I didn't read through all 50 pages of this thread), the one F-15 that lost it's wing and returned, was during a training exercise, not combat. It collided with an A-4 Skyhawk. I'm biased here, being a mechanic on both F-15's (A through D) and F-4G's, my nod goes to the F-15. It's just so damn sexy.

XBe02Drvr · Sep 12, 2019

Fighterguy said:
the one F-15 that lost it's wing and returned, was during a training exercise, not combat. It collided with an A-4 Skyhawk.

We had a similar episode involving an F4 and TA4 that miscalculated a head-on pass in ACM training. The F4 came back missing its entire outer wing panel and took the wire. The TA4, after recovering from several uncommanded rolls determined that control could not be maintained below 300 KIAS and the fuel was rapidly disappearing over the side. They made it most of the way to the waiting helicopter before they flamed out and stepped out of the jet.
Cheers,
Wes

Skyediamonds · Sep 12, 2019

Wasn't that an Israeli F-15 that lost its wing? If so, was it still due to training or was there yet another F-15 (Israeli) that lost its wing in combat?

jetcal1 · Sep 14, 2019

XBe02Drvr said:
When the F4, came along and became the Navy's primary fighter, it was considered too heavy and fast for the "small deck" Essex class carriers, which continued to operate the F8, even though it wasn't as fast or long legged as the Phantom. Then along comes the F14, which was considered a bit of a tight fit on the 27Charlie boats ,(FDR, Coral Sea, Midway) so the F4 was retained for their air wings, as well as photorecon and defense suppression (what USAF calls wild weasel). During this time Tomcats were strictly air-to-air fighters, as they had neither equipment nor training for attack missions, and there were plenty of less expensive and less complex aircraft around for that purpose. Then someone got the bright idea of hanging a LANTIRN laser designator system on the F14, and it became the go to option for long-range precision strike missions such as defense suppression.
Cheers,
Wes

BTW, here's a nice little clip of the F-111B on the Coral Sea.
https://i.ytimg.com/vi/UxDV9y5Is64/hqdefault.jpg

Elvis · Sep 14, 2019

jetcal1 · Sep 15, 2019

Elvis said:

I think you may have just fixed my link!
Thanks!

Elvis · Sep 15, 2019

jetcal1, you're welcome.
When posting a link, best to post straight from the source.
Always strive to link as directly from the source as possible.

The Greatest Fighter Jet of All Time.

Which is the Best?

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Sabre F-86

Mig 15

MiG-21

Harrier

EF-2000

Mirage 2000

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F-15 Eagle

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SU-37

F-4 Phantom

English Electric Lightning

F-22 Raptor

F-18 Super Hornet

F-8 Crusader

F-104 Starfighter

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Chief Master Sergeant

Senior Airman

Chief Master Sergeant

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