The Greatest Fighter Pilot in WW II???

[Lightning Guy]

Dan Roberts (one of the leading aces in the Pacific at the time of his death) was killed when his wingman was too slow reacting to a turn Roberts was attempting to stay with a target. The two aircraft collided and both were killed. I guess you could argue that Roberts died because he was TOO good.

 

[lesofprimus]

Or his wingman was a meatball moron....

One ting to point out on this topic, is that when interviewed, just about every Japanese ace commented on how Hiroyoshi Nishizawa could fly his aircraft...
Many were stunned at his abilities and skill....
He would put on aerial acrobatics shows that would boggle the minds of some of the Greatest pilots Japan had...

Pilots such as Saburo Sakai, Tetsuzo Iwamoto, Satoshi Anabuki, and Shoichi Sugita all claimed that Nishizawa was the greatest pilot the have ever seen.... That definatly means something....

 

[Lightning Guy]

Plenty of American aces said the same type of things about McGuire. They claim he could do things with a P-38 that were virtually impossible.

 

[the lancaster kicks ass]

i would have been more impressed whaching a zero...................

 

[lesofprimus]

McGuire was a glory hound..... And if I'm not mistaken, when he died with his wingman, he was engaged in combat with none other than Shoigi Sugita himself... Ill check on that one....

McGuire's hope of forty victories was never realized.... Attacking a Zeke at tree-top altitude over Negros Island on 7 Jan 1945, he entered a high speed stall and crashed into the jungle....

Of all the World War II aces, Thomas B. McGuire, Jr. stands out of the crowd for one reason: he openly lusted for the fame that would come with being a leading ace, and thereby the best pilot.... In the American and British air forces, there is a tradition of modesty regarding this goal....

No one will ever accuse a man like Chuck Yeager of lack of ego, but it is kept in public check behind an "aw shucks, I was just doin' the job" attitude.... McGuire's lust for fame and glory would make him America's Number Two ace of all time, with 38 victories behind the 40 of his great rival, Richard I. Bong, but it would also insure he could never become Number One.... Perhaps this is the poetic justice of the universe at work...

McGuire made up for that as soon as he could climb into "Pudgy V." By 13 Dec 1944, his score was 31.... That was the week Bong scored his 40th and was removed from operations by General Kenney to go home to the U.S.A. and be awarded the Medal of Honor... On Christmas Day, McGuire scored victories 37 and 38 - putting him only two behind Bong - and was grounded by General Kenney until Bong could get home and receive his hero's welcome... Military Politics at its finest...

Allowed back in the air on Jan 7, 1945, McGuire was out for blood... Leading a flight of 4, he spotted a lone "Zero" low over the jungle of Negros Island... He had always preached never to get low, slow and heavy with the P-38, but this time he didn't let go his drop tanks... He saw the "Zero" as an easy kill, and with it and one more he would tie Bong... He made the fatal decision to keep his tanks, make the bounce, and continue the hunt... Not the smartest thing to do....

Unfortunately for McGuire, the pilot he attacked was NAP 1/c Soichi Sugita, at that time the top-scoring surviving IJN ace with 80-odd kills scored over Rabaul, a master at the controls of a "Zero"... In the ensuing fight, Sugita managed to shoot down one of McGuire's wingmen, and severely damage the other two. He then went after McGuire... Low over the jungle, heavy with fuel, McGuire stalled out trying to get away from Sugita and crashed to his death, a pointed example of the dark side of the lust for fame and glory....

The USAAF couldn't admit the truth about the real nature of their Number Two ace.... The official account of McGuire's demise has his flight attacked by a lone Zero, which shot down his junior wingman and damaged the other two, who only escaped with their lives when McGuire came to their rescue and tangled with the "Zero", only to stall over the jungle and crash.... For this selfless act, "above and beyond the call of duty," McGuire was awarded a posthumous Medal of Honor.... McGuire Air Force Base in New Jersey is named in his honor....

More Military Politics at its very best.....

Sugita was killed on 15 April 1945 by LCdr Robert "Doc" Weatherup of VF-46. Capt Genda ordered a scramble when enemy aircrafts were approaching Kanoya. However, they arrived sooner than expected, and he gave orders for the standby pilots to abord takeoff. However, Sugita and his wingman, Toyomi Miyazawa either ignored the abort order or didn't get it. Both jumped into their aircraft as Hellcats became strafing and rocket bombing the airfield. Sugita managed to take off, reached about 400 feet, and Weatherup circled and got on his tail. The George was hit and Sugita nosed over and exploded. Then Weatherup took care of Miyazawa.

 

[Lightning Guy]

Not exactly true. McGuire was not attempting to avoid Sugita but was attempting to pull enough lead to shoot Sugita off of another P-38's tail when he went in. Interestingly, despite the incredibly low altitude, McGuire had managed to right his Lightning and was initiating a pull out when he ran out of room. I do not deny the man was an egomaniac, but he knew how to fly.

 

[MichaelHenley]

Bong's the only one I know, so I voted for him. I've made his P-38J too.

 

[Lightning Guy]

Bong was a great pilot, but probably not the greatest (though I consider him my favorite). Interestingly, Col. Charles MacDonald, commander of the 475th FG (who had flown with both Bong and McGuire) said that Col. Neal Kirby was the best pilot he ran into during the war.

 

[lesofprimus]

Seeing how many believe the P-51D was the best plane and in order to supply as much info as I can, here is a listing of P-51 Aces and their totals.... Shown are victories ONLY in the Mustang...

23.83 George Preddy Jr.
21 John Voll
21 John Meyer
18.5 Glenn Eagleston
18.5 Leonard Carson
17.5 John England
17 Ray Wetmore
17 James Varnell Jr
16.5 Don Gentile
16.25 Clarence Anderson Jr
15.5 Richard Peterson
15.5 Don Beerbower
15.5 Samuel Brown
15 Bruce Carr
15 Jack Bradley
14.5 William Whisner
14 John Herbst
14 Edward McComas
14 Wallace Emmer
13.83 John Godfrey
13.83 Donald Bochkay
13 Ralph Hofer
13 Robert Stephens
13 James Brooks
13 Robert Curtis
13 Harry Parker
13 Clyde East

I think that there was some special circumstances concerning opinions of pilots....
A P-51 Pilot will undoubtably say that another P-51 pilot was the best pilot, just like a P-38 pilot would say that another P-38 pilot was the best...

 

[Lightning Guy]

MacDonald (a P-38 pilot) said Kirby (a P-47 pilot) was the best.

 

[lesofprimus]

Hmmmm.... Interesting....

 

[1539ram]

i just spent a half hour typing what i feel on this subject only to apparently have it lost after spending time logging in to this site and i am not going to do it all over again ... anyone interested in franz stigler can contact me at [email protected] ... thanks, ron

 

[evangilder]

I heard that Bong flew like the plane was an extension of himself, but he flew very conservatively. He knew the limits of the airplane and rarely, if ever flew beyond them. McGuire was the antithesis of Bong. Bong was a quiet thinker. McGuire was a risk taker and pretty vocal. Kind of like a camparison of Captain Kirk and Captain Picard (Sorry, Star Trek reference).

 

[plan_D]

Too right you apologise for the Star Trek reference. You should have used Erwin Rommel and Montgomery as a reference. Rommel being the risk taker.

 

[johnny]

Surely any pilot is only called an Ace because of his kills.I dont know of any pilot who got medals for being a good pilot an not an ace.

 

[Lightning Guy]

Try every bomber pilot ever decorated.

 

[lesofprimus]

Bong routinely flew his aircraft beyond the stress limits of his aircraft... Several of his wingmen had to get replacement planes because the rivets were stretched and poppin out...

McGuire was a cocky sumbizitch... He was so full of himself, that when Charles Lindbergh was rooming in his tent, he used to order him around and make him fetch things for him... When he made Captain, he wouldnt allow anyone to call him Mac anymore, just Captain McGuire.... No one liked him personally, and the feeling was probably mutual....

 

[Lightning Guy]

That is partially true. As an individual, McGuire was not well liked. As a pilot he was admired and as a commander he was deeply appreciated.

 

[GermansRGeniuses]

Hey D, didja know Rommel's son is still alive?

 

[Gemhorse]

Yeah, I've read that bit about McGuire and Lindbergh somewhere.....Speaking of P-51 pilots, what about Don Blakeslee, I read about him and I recall Bud Anderson had high praise for him too.....
- And yeah, Rommel's son is Manfred.....