Kevin J
Banned
You mean like the post-War Agro Shackleton.
The Lancaster as a potential nuclear bomber in 1945
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You mean like the post-War Agro Shackleton.
GrauGeist
Generalfeldmarschall zur Luftschiff Abteilung
Their I-400 class (only 3 of 18 completed) and AM class subs (2 of 7 completed) were built too late in the war for proper training and deployment for the planned Panama and San Diego missions.
Also, one of the I-400 class subs was needed to pick up the Tiger tank from France that the IJA had ordered but the Normandy invasion happened before this could be accomplished.
FLYBOYJ
"THE GREAT GAZOO"
Read some of my earlier comments and information. As a nuke carrier it should stay home.
FLYBOYJ
"THE GREAT GAZOO"
Yes and no - the B-36 wasn't going to happen during WW2, but the B-50 "could have" been a possibility, remember it was supposed to the "B-29D." The time frame was there and the first orders were placed in the summer of 45.
Kevin J
Banned
Also the B-36 was designed in WW2.
FLYBOYJ
"THE GREAT GAZOO"
It was - but even under the best situations, it wasn't going to happen for WW2. The B-50 however had a chance and was actually ordered. The prototype of soughs, the XB-44 flew in 1944. The only reason why the B-29D was re-designated "B-50" was due to funding protocol. B-50 development ground to a snail's pace and IIRC it's first flight under the new designation didn't happen until 1947. Had the war progressed on we would have seen the B-29D (B-50) being delivered before years' end 1945.
Put four single-stage Griffons on a Lincoln (evolved Lanc) and you get a Shackleton! A streamlined Lincoln with two-stage Griffons would likely escape any Jap defence and A-bomb effects. Parachute the bomb if you're nervous.
GrauGeist
Generalfeldmarschall zur Luftschiff Abteilung
Probably not a good idea to be having a nuke dangling from a chute.
Aside from the fact that it's accuracy would be out the window, now the Japanese AA have a big fat target - and I say big fat target because it would take one hell of a parachute to slow down 9,700 (or 10,300) pounds.
Lots of nukes had chutes, as here: Remembering A Near Disaster: U.S. Accidentally Drops Nuclear Bombs On Itself And Its Allies
GrauGeist
Generalfeldmarschall zur Luftschiff Abteilung
The weapons referred to in that artical had yields hundreds of times that of the two deployed over Japan.
Meaning that Fat Man/Little Boy had to be in direct proximity of their intended target. A modern ("modern" for the Cold War) did not need to be nearly as accurate in order to achieve results - dropping bombs over Japan at high altitudes were blown off course by the prevailing winds (which is why the switch in conventional bombing doctrine) and if one (or more) were in a chute, it would go considerably off-course before reaching it's intended target.
Also, the ability to drag-correct/decelerate weapons of that mass in order to maximize yeild matured in the post-war era - the Atomic Bomb program during WWII was breaking new ground all across the board.
Meaning that Fat Man/Little Boy had to be in direct proximity of their intended target. A modern ("modern" for the Cold War) did not need to be nearly as accurate in order to achieve results - dropping bombs over Japan at high altitudes were blown off course by the prevailing winds (which is why the switch in conventional bombing doctrine) and if one (or more) were in a chute, it would go considerably off-course before reaching it's intended target.
Also, the ability to drag-correct/decelerate weapons of that mass in order to maximize yeild matured in the post-war era - the Atomic Bomb program during WWII was breaking new ground all across the board.
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- #231
Reviving this thread somewhat, an article on this subject (without the wild theories being promoted on this thread) has been published in the August 2020 issue of Aeroplane Magazine in the UK. Link here to the magazine website:
VICTORY 75: MISSION IMPROBABLE
If you wish to read it, you have to either buy a copy of the magazine from a news agent or subscribe via the website and download a digital copy.
Aeroplane Magazine Subscription
VICTORY 75: MISSION IMPROBABLE
If you wish to read it, you have to either buy a copy of the magazine from a news agent or subscribe via the website and download a digital copy.
Aeroplane Magazine Subscription
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- Thread starter
- #232
As an aside, this came as a response to the article and fits with some of the more crazy theories out there. It is posted unedited and names have been omitted to protect the innocent!
"Sirs,
As the 'Little Boy' Atomic Bomb was designed by the opposition to be carried by the He 177 Grieff it should have been well within the capacity of the Lancaster.
Considering, a soldier raised the alarm on Sunday morning 8th April 1945, on a rest day, that 'Yellow Cake' had been dispatched to a factory located in a salt mine in the Hartz Mountains, the response by the RAF was brilliant. The He 177 was detected on the night of Monday 9th April by a Mosquito NF Mk 30 of 219 Squadron, and shot down over Northern France.
The weapon was recovered from the site and was on display at Hendon. From there years later, it was refurbished by Aldermaston Apprentices and is now on display in the IWM.
The second 'Little Boy' was captured by a unit of the US 9th Army, where it was anticipated and this device reported on. See the report featured in the Library of Congress. A second He 177 was on standby on a nearby airfield!"
"Sirs,
As the 'Little Boy' Atomic Bomb was designed by the opposition to be carried by the He 177 Grieff it should have been well within the capacity of the Lancaster.
Considering, a soldier raised the alarm on Sunday morning 8th April 1945, on a rest day, that 'Yellow Cake' had been dispatched to a factory located in a salt mine in the Hartz Mountains, the response by the RAF was brilliant. The He 177 was detected on the night of Monday 9th April by a Mosquito NF Mk 30 of 219 Squadron, and shot down over Northern France.
The weapon was recovered from the site and was on display at Hendon. From there years later, it was refurbished by Aldermaston Apprentices and is now on display in the IWM.
The second 'Little Boy' was captured by a unit of the US 9th Army, where it was anticipated and this device reported on. See the report featured in the Library of Congress. A second He 177 was on standby on a nearby airfield!"
Peter Gunn
Master Sergeant
GrauGeist
Generalfeldmarschall zur Luftschiff Abteilung
There are some that truly beleive that Little Boy was German.
While the Germans (and Japanese) had nuclear programs, they didn't possess the ability to process the Uranium to the grade and in sufficient quantities to produce Little Boy.
The processing facility (S-50) was a complex that required a considerable amount of labor and materials that the Germans would have been hard-pressed to make, let alone keep out of sight.
Among some of the materials needed for S-50, was an absurd amount of silver for the cyclotron, used instead of copper (because silver is a more efficient conductor), which came from the U.S. Treasury.
So while it makes for an interesting story, it just wasn't possible.
- Thread starter
- #235
Absolutely. The Little Boy only came about with the use of Uranium U235 as the isotope for the gun 'bullet' as a result of impurities in the plutonium that came from the Hanford site at Benton, Washington originally designed for use in the Thin Man bomb; the first atom bomb design. The use of U235 meant that the bomb could be reduced in length from 17 feet to 11 feet.
That the Germans got a processing plant to refine the right kind of material, let alone design a workable bomb when lacking the facilities and the thinking behind the Manhattan Project is inexplicable. Not saying they couldn't have done it, but Nazi Germany suffered a brain drain when its Jewish scientists left in the late 30s, which meant it would have taken the Nazis a bit longer than the time they had left.
Apologies if I'm posting information already covered here, but I didn't have an opportunity to reread the entire thread. Sticking to the Lancaster as anatomic bomber reminded me of a presentation I attended at the Atomic Testing Museum in Las Vegas. One of the things that stood out to me wasn't the difficulty getting the bomb to the target, it was getting the bomber far enough away from the explosion to survive. While the Lancaster may have been able to lug the bomb to Hiroshima I have a hard time to believe that it would be able to reach the safe threshold from the explosion (per wiki this was 8.5 miles).
The flight path for the Little & Fat Man Bombs required dropping the bombs at 30,000 ft+ @ 200 mph, performing an immediate 155 degree turn with 1700' dive and flying away at maximum power. Both bombs fell for an average of 44 seconds before detonation. Doing some sloppy math, a Lancaster dropping the bomb at 20,000+ would have to perform the same maneuver with just 28.6 seconds before detonation. The Lancaster would be significantly closer to the blast and without sitting down and doing proper calculations seems to be within the safety zone.
I'm sure there are members of the forum better equipped to calculate this out, but my feeling is the Lancaster just doesn't have what it takes to survive such a mission.
The flight path for the Little & Fat Man Bombs required dropping the bombs at 30,000 ft+ @ 200 mph, performing an immediate 155 degree turn with 1700' dive and flying away at maximum power. Both bombs fell for an average of 44 seconds before detonation. Doing some sloppy math, a Lancaster dropping the bomb at 20,000+ would have to perform the same maneuver with just 28.6 seconds before detonation. The Lancaster would be significantly closer to the blast and without sitting down and doing proper calculations seems to be within the safety zone.
I'm sure there are members of the forum better equipped to calculate this out, but my feeling is the Lancaster just doesn't have what it takes to survive such a mission.
swampyankee
Chief Master Sergeant
- 3,974
- Jun 25, 2013
God, I hope so!
The Alsos Mission pretty much proved that the Germans were years away from a working nuclear weapon and it also seems some of the scientists in Germany were deliberately going down blind alleys in nuclear weapons development.
GrauGeist
Generalfeldmarschall zur Luftschiff Abteilung
The Germans could have produced "dirty" bombs, carried aloft by the proposed A9/A10 Aggregat rocket, but the effects of "dirty" weapons were not really known in the late 30's/early 40's.
Plus the only rocket available was the A4, who's payload was comparable to the A9/10 (about a ton) with a much shorter range.
The A9/A10 was intented to reach the U.S. from France with conventional warheads.
Plus the only rocket available was the A4, who's payload was comparable to the A9/10 (about a ton) with a much shorter range.
The A9/A10 was intented to reach the U.S. from France with conventional warheads.
Please read the whole thread. The Lancaster VI had a service ceiling, at ~58K lb (approximate weight at bomb release) of well above 30K ft due to it's two stage Merlin 85 engines where the typical Lancaster used single stage engines.
see these posts:
The Lancaster as a potential nuclear bomber in 1945
The Lancaster as a potential nuclear bomber in 1945
The Lancaster as a potential nuclear bomber in 1945
Greetings RCAFson,
I did look at the Lancaster VI, however, based on its lack of field success felt that it was not an appropriate aircraft. Per wikipedia, only nine were built and due to problems with the engines were retired from service in 1944. Doesn't sound like the right aircraft for the job. I recognize from this thread and others on this site that the Lancaster is a beloved aircraft with an outstanding record of achievements, but it may not be suitable for every application. One thing that stood out to me about the Lancaster is that it appears to have fabric covered controls. This may not be true in later models, but that would be a significant weakness in the aircraft if it were closer to either nuclear explosion.
Reagards,
Kk
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