The N1K2-J Shiden Kai vs Its US Counterpart

[contrails16]

Hi all,
I am writing this to firstly find out what was the exact plane that could be considered the Shiden Kai's adversary, or main foe? I am also wondering, could the Shiden Kai out dogfight this foe through turning capability? I always hear the term Grumman thrown around but I can't find out which "[insert adjective/noun]cat" it was because my knowledge on US WW2 planes isn't that spectacular. Thanks all

 

[glennasher]

During the time frame the George was flying, I would assume it was flying against the Grumman F6F Hellcat or the FM-2s, and the Vought Corsairs, of the US Naval Air components. It might also be flying against P-51s after the Iwo Jima battle. This would be around late 1944 or early 1945.

I don't think many US pilots would fight to the George's strengths, though, unless they just got jumped without noticing them, they would fight to their own strengths, not to the Japanese aircraft's. The US aircraft were quite a bit faster, and would 'boom and zoom' rather than a turning fight, if they had a choice.

 

[GregP]

I'd say the primary opponents were the F6F and the F4U, with a few P-51s thrown in later.

When we get to the N1K1-J, we're looking at low 400 mph, a bit over 4,000 fpm rate of climb, very good roll rate, and 4 x 20 mm cannons. Altogether a formidable airplane. It would definitely out-roll a hellcat, but I'm not too sure it would out-turn one ... maybe.

The Hellcat had the biggest wing of any U.S. Navy fighter and, if it wasn't anything else, it WAS a very good turner. The F4U could not turn so well, but out-rolled the Hellcat handily. Both had the same armament (as well as same engine and, for many, the same propeller).

Japanese pilot quality had declined by the time this formidable airplane had gotten into action but, if the Japanese driver was a decent veteran pilot, then it was quite a formidable opponent for whoever encountered it. I would not think the outcome was very sure for either side, and would likely be decided by initial position, or pilot skill. With 20 mm cannons, if the N1K got in any hits, the U.S. fighter was likely down or, at least, out of the fight. Out of the fight over water away from the carrier usually meant lost unless the carrier was very close and the battle as essentially over so rescue could be contemplated instead of concentrating on not being sunk from air attack.

 

[contrails16]

Thanks for the input guys

 

[DarrenW]

With 20 mm cannons, if the N1K got in any hits, the U.S. fighter was likely down or, at least, out of the fight.

This is true but noted ace and Shiden-Kai pilot Honda Minoru, who flew with the 343rd Kokutai near war's end was interviewed many years ago and asked what his thoughts were on the four 20mm cannon of the N1K2. He responded:

I would have preferred 6 12.7mm just like the Grummans for their rate of fire and muzzle velocity. More ammo that way too. 20mm with bad muzzle velocity drop off like a stream of piss!....

 

[Vincenzo]

I'd say the primary opponents were the F6F and the F4U, with a few P-51s thrown in later.

When we get to the N1K1-J, we're looking at low 400 mph, a bit over 4,000 fpm rate of climb, very good roll rate, and 4 x 20 mm cannons. Altogether a formidable airplane. It would definitely out-roll a hellcat, but I'm not too sure it would out-turn one ... maybe.

the 2-J was a relatively different aircraft from 1-J, was low wing not medium wing, was lighter and so

 

[DarrenW]

Hi all,
I am writing this to firstly find out what was the exact plane that could be considered the Shiden Kai's adversary, or main foe? I am also wondering, could the Shiden Kai out dogfight this foe through turning capability? I always hear the term Grumman thrown around but I can't find out which "[insert adjective/noun]cat" it was because my knowledge on US WW2 planes isn't that spectacular. Thanks all

Without a doubt the F6F Hellcat. In his book, Hellcat Vs Shiden/Shiden-Kai Pacific Theater 1944-45, author Tony Holmes states that there were probably no more than twenty meetings between the F6F and N1K and most encounters heavily favored the American fighter. This number agrees with my research. The F4U, P-47, and P-51 also fought the 'George' on ocassion, but on a much reduced scale.

As a further example of the Hellcat's dominance, the well-researched and verified kill to loss ratio between various Hellcat units and the elite 343rd Kokutai was 5.1 to 1 in favor of the US Navy, this with extremely proficient Japanese pilots at the controls of the Shiden-Kais.

 

[DarrenW]

When we get to the N1K1-J, we're looking at low 400 mph, a bit over 4,000 fpm rate of climb

I'm assuming those numbers are TAIC calculations, and not figures from actual flight testing. According to Francillon the N1K1 had a top speed of 363 mph @19,355ft and took 7.83 minutes to climb to that altitude.

 

[contrails16]

Without a doubt the F6F Hellcat. In his book, Hellcat Vs Shiden/Shiden-Kai Pacific Theater 1944-45, author Tony Holmes states that there were probably no more than twenty meetings between the F6F and N1K and most encounters heavily favored the American fighter. This number agrees with my research. The F4U, P-47, and P-51 also fought the 'George' on ocassion, but on a much reduced scale.

As a further example of the Hellcat's dominance, the well-researched and verified kill to loss ratio between various Hellcat units and the elite 343rd Kokutai was 5.1 to 1 in favor of the US Navy, this with extremely proficient Japanese pilots at the controls of the Shiden-Kais.

5.1 to 1? Was this number presented in the book you mentioned? Thanks

 

[DarrenW]

5.1 to 1? Was this number presented in the book you mentioned? Thanks

The number is derived mostly from Genda's Blade. There the authors break down the protagonists involved in every scrap with the 343rd and give the final tally of the day's events. If you can get a copy I highly recommend it.

 

[contrails16]

The number is derived mostly from Genda's Blade. There the authors break down the protagonists involved in every scrap with the 343rd and give the final tally of the day's events. If you can get a copy I highly recommend it.

I own a copy of Genda's Blade and am excited to start reading it, I just am in the process of finishing up Eagles of Mitsubishi

 

[DarrenW]

I own a copy of Genda's Blade and am excited to start reading it, I just am in the process of finishing up Eagles of Mitsubishi

It's probably one of the most balanced and best researched books on military aviation that I've come across during my more than 50 years in the hobby.

 

[contrails16]

Hmm, so taking everything that's been said into consideration, is it safe to assume that had an F6F and a Shiden Kai came into contact with another the deciding factor in terms of who would score the victory would be the pilot? I feel that the planes are similar in their characteristics and tech specs with some slight advantages/disadvantages. This has been some awesome feedback and food for thought by the way guys, thanks once again

 

[DarrenW]

Hmm, so taking everything that's been said into consideration, is it safe to assume that had an F6F and a Shiden Kai came into contact with another the deciding factor in terms of who would score the victory would be the pilot? I feel that the planes are similar in their characteristics and tech specs with some slight advantages/disadvantages. This has been some awesome feedback and food for thought by the way guys, thanks once again

The pilot is a HUGE factor in which aircraft will triumph in a one-on-one dogfight. But given the variables that existed over Japan in 1945, I'd give the nod to the F6F every time as it was able to fully realize it's design potential through better quality manufacturing, superior maintenance, and higher octane fuels. Add in better protection for both the pilot and aircraft and more desirable armament and it's an easy decision for me.

The N1K2 was a decent enough design and under better circumstances would have made a bigger impact, but as we now know history had another story to tell....

 

[Acheron]

very good roll rate, and 4 x 20 mm cannons. Altogether a formidable airplane. It would definitely out-roll a hellcat
...
The F4U could not turn so well, but out-rolled the Hellcat handily.

If I may ask, wh was the roll-rate of an aircraft so important? I presume the roll-rate along longitudinal axis is referred to?

 

[BiffF15]

If I may ask, wh was the roll-rate of an aircraft so important? I presume the roll-rate along longitudinal axis is referred to?

Acheron,

Having an advantage in roll is the same as having faster hands to a boxer. The Zero above a certain speed would become very heavy on the controls which in turn means a slower roll rate. It's hard to get out of the way of bullets when your roll rate is slow.

Cheers,
Biff

 

[Vincenzo]

As a further example of the Hellcat's dominance, the well-researched and verified kill to loss ratio between various Hellcat units and the elite 343rd Kokutai was 5.1 to 1 in favor of the US Navy, this with extremely proficient Japanese pilots at the controls of the Shiden-Kais.

I just read the 19 March battle from Genda'S Blade and the losses were 15 Shiden/Shiden Kai for 14 Hellcat/Corsair

 

[Acheron]

Acheron,

Having an advantage in roll is the same as having faster hands to a boxer. The Zero above a certain speed would become very heavy on the controls which in turn means a slower roll rate. It's hard to get out of the way of bullets when your roll rate is slow.

Cheers,
Biff

So, roll-rate translates into horizontal agility? The better your roll-rate, the faster you can pitch (?) your aircraft to the left or right and change your direction on your height plane?

 

[GregP]

Hi BiffF15,

Question: I am under the impression that rate of pitch is just as important as rate of roll. That is, you can pull tighter than the guy behind you and get separation OR you can roll quicker and THEN pull to get separation.

So, for the point of view of a fighter pilot, which is more important, pitch or roll? If you HAD to have one be slower than your opponent near your six, which one would you choose?

I heard one P-39 pilot who basically said that he would roll as hard as he could for 1 - 2 seconds, stop and pull as hard as he could for 2 - 3 seconds, and repeat 3 times ... and nobody was ever on his tail after the third repetition. Not sure if that makes sense, but he was just trying to get separation when someone was near his six.

No agenda here, just curious.

 

[BiffF15]

So, roll-rate translates into horizontal agility? The better your roll-rate, the faster you can pitch (?) your aircraft to the left or right and change your direction on your height plane?

Acheron,

Roll rate translates into a type of agility, which is what I think you mean by horizontal agility (moving left or right from the offenders perspective). To maneuver in relation to the horizon can be done in both pitch and / or roll. If I understand you properly, I would say you are correct. We are just using different vernacular.

Cheers,
Biff