The N1K2-J Shiden Kai vs Its US Counterpart

[BiffF15]

Hi BiffF15,

Question: I am under the impression that rate of pitch is just as important as rate of roll. That is, you can pull tighter than the guy behind you and get separation OR you can roll quicker and THEN pull to get separation.

So, for the point of view of a fighter pilot, which is more important, pitch or roll? If you HAD to have one be slower than your opponent near your six, which one would you choose?

I heard one P-39 pilot who basically said that he would roll as hard as he could for 1 - 2 seconds, stop and pull as hard as he could for 2 - 3 seconds, and repeat 3 times ... and nobody was ever on his tail after the third repetition. Not sure if that makes sense, but he was just trying to get separation when someone was near his six.

No agenda here, just curious.

Greg,

Good question. I would say it depends. Most of the guys I fought were close in pitch and roll rates. It was sustained were they stood apart. I would say it would have to be noticeable advantage in either pitch or roll to be able to really capitalize off it.

If you have a noticeable advantage in roll you can get out of the way of the bullet stream, or get inside a guys turn (circle)(Bob Johnson talked about this in a fight with a Spitfire IIRC). You very quickly learn to look over your shoulder and anticipate / judge a gun shot by a bandit and maneuver appropriately at the proper time (guns jink)(avoiding being shot).

If defensive and fighting a Zero, get your speed up, roll, then pull in a different plane to spoil his gun shot and open up distance (Zero roll rate being much worse the faster it went). Since you could out roll him above 250 (IIRC), by rolling then pulling you can build distance between you and him. His roll being so slow that he has his nose in lag (behind you) which means you are opening up range until he gets his lift vector back on / in front of you and nose back in lead. Also realize that rolling and pulling at the same time will really scrub off speed. Doing one at a time is much better (we lived this in the Eagle).

If you have a noticeable advantage in pitch you can loop and end up on your bandit's six, or split S in a tighter circle than him, or just out turn him in the horizontal. Realize that the loop maneuver will not be an airshow loop (nice round circle), but instead will be initially tight, then get bigger, and may line out a little going down hill to get enough airspeed to go over the top again.

The P-39 pilot was basically doing crazy Ivan's (Hunt for Red October). The first rule is "lose sight lose the fight". You don't take your eyes off a guy unless do to maneuvers so that you react appropriately to what the bandit is doing. Then you re-aquire again ASAP. He (P-39 guy) should have been hammered for his actions.

Cheers,

 

[DarrenW]

I just read the 19 March battle from Genda'S Blade and the losses were 15 Shiden/Shiden Kai for 14 Hellcat/Corsair

Yes, and that was the 343rd Kokutai's best showing of the war. If you read on their successes dwindled as the year progressed.

The 14 US aircraft included those that made it back to the safety of their ship but were deemed un-repairable and eventually dumped over-board. a Total of nine US fighters (three Corsairs and six Hellcats) were brought down by the 343rd over enemy territory. Five US pilots were KIA as compared to 14 Japanese pilots. All ready you can see that the future doesn't look bright for 343rd.

It is unknown just how many Japanese fighters survived combat that day but were so badly shot up that they were deemed beyond repair. For instance, one heavily damaged Shiden made an emergency landing which seemingly destroyed the plane but the pilot survived. Unlike carrier aircraft, those stationed on land have the luxury of being scrapped and used for parts. Situations like this most likely go undocumented. With limited space on carriers it was commonplace for heavily damaged Hellcats and Corsairs to end up at the bottom of the sea, which by protocol had to be officially reported.

Of the 15 N1Ks destroyed that day, at least 12 can be attributed to Hellcat pilots.

 

[DarrenW]

This is an excellent CG rendition of March 19, 1945 and the other combats that followed. Very accurate, right down to the aircraft markings of the units involved. If you haven't already watched it I recommend that you do....

 

[contrails16]

This is an excellent CG rendition of March 19, 1945 and the other combats that followed. Very accurate, right down to the aircraft markings of the units involved. If you haven't already watched it I recommend that you do....

You know, something I was thinking about, I still haven't cracked open my copy of Genda's blade quite yet, in confrontations between the Shiden Kai's and F6F's were the Shiden Kai's typically outnumbered? I'm only asking because I know the 343 began to take on inexperienced and young pilots, but that there were still a core group of aces and experienced veterans. I feel that these more battle hardened member of the 343 must've been on a level playing field with some of the more skilled American pilots at the time, if not maybe even a little more advanced than them. Do you think it's possible that the decrease in success from the 343 came from being overwhelmed by pure numbers, material shortages, and crew training? I'm sorry if my question seems biased or basic. Thanks for the input

 

[DarrenW]

Do you think it's possible that the decrease in success from the 343 came from being overwhelmed by pure numbers, material shortages, and crew training?

Excellent question. Without a doubt the group's effectiveness continually declined through the constant attrition of pilots and airplanes, which incidentally began on their very first day of operations (March 19th). Losing 15 airplanes and 14 pilots in a single day was a huge blow to the unit and set the stage for even more losses in the future. Besides a few isolated examples of holding their own, the Kokutai was handed defeat after defeat which slowly whittled down the belief that a fighter pilot 'dream team' could effectively make a difference at this late stage in the war.

It must also be remembered that Japan didn't have the resources like the US to recover from such a high level of losses. And although the thought of making a squadron of 'experts' looks good on paper, it most assuredly had a negative effect on other Japanese flying units which could have used the seasoned leadership and experience, thereby improving the competence of the IJNAF as a whole.

I will have to get back to you concerning the numbers involved in each action, but if memory serves me right I believe the 343rd had a numerical advantage on occasion but of course there were times when the opposite was true. I can't remember however a single instance of the unit being overwhelmed by the shear number of American warplanes.

 

[contrails16]

Excellent question. Without a doubt the group's effectiveness continually declined through the constant attrition of pilots and airplanes, which incidentally began on their very first day of operations (March 19th). Losing 15 airplanes and 14 pilots in a single day was a huge blow to the unit and set the stage for even more losses in the future. Besides a few isolated examples of holding their own, the Kokutai was handed defeat after defeat which slowly whittled down the belief that a fighter pilot 'dream team' could effectively make a difference at this late stage in the war.

It must also be remembered that Japan didn't have the resources like the US to recover from such a high level of losses. And although the thought of making a squadron of 'experts' looks good on paper, it most assuredly had a negative effect on other Japanese flying units which could have used the seasoned leadership and experience, thereby improving the competence of the IJNAF as a whole.

I will have to get back to you concerning the numbers involved in each action, but if memory serves me right I believe the 343rd had a numerical advantage on occasion but of course there were times when the opposite was true. I can't remember however a single instance of the unit being overwhelmed by the shear number of American warplanes.

Good view on the situation, and well thought out. Thank you

 

[pgf_666]

Acheron,

Having an advantage in roll is the same as having faster hands to a boxer. The Zero above a certain speed would become very heavy on the controls which in turn means a slower roll rate. It's hard to get out of the way of bullets when your roll rate is slow.

Cheers,
Biff

Also, everyone talks about turn rate, a valid concern, but in an aeroplane, first you must roll before you can turn, then you must roll the other way to exit it.

So, slow roll-rate=sitting duck....

 

[pgf_666]

... Do you think it's possible that the decrease in success from the 343 came from being overwhelmed by pure numbers, material shortages, and crew training? ...

Yes.

 

[DarrenW]

 

[GregP]

You do not have to roll to turn. If you pull and your pitch rate is greater than your opponent's pitch rate, you are out of his stream of fire. It results in a loop, but it is a turn in the vertical plane. Granted, most people would roll first but, if your roll rate is slower than your opponent's roll rate, you have to use what you can to get out of the way.

In WWII, in the ETO, the early Fw 190s were much better rollers than the Allied opposition, and they had good success at first. But then the Allies learned it's strengths and the Fw 190s weren't having such an easy time.

 

[DarrenW]

You do not have to roll to turn...

I always thought that rolling is primarily used to escape a fight, while turning is paramount when engaging the enemy. I know there can be a mix of each in some ACM but it seems that planes with good turning characteristics are also considered to be better at performing aerial maneuvers too.

Maybe Biff or Greg can help sort this out for me....

 

[BiffF15]

I always thought that rolling is primarily used to escape a fight, while turning is paramount when engaging the enemy. I know there can be a mix of each in some ACM but it seems that planes with good turning characteristics are also considered to be better at performing aerial maneuvers too.

Maybe Biff or Greg can help sort this out for me....

Darren,

What Greg said above is correct, with the caveat that going up is your biggest turn circle initially so one has to be aware of when its safe. Also, not all fights start with one guy wings level. Bandits will enter and exit a mature / established fight. With good SA you can get unobserved entries and kills. However it can be risky if you lose SA or don't keep clearing your six (or have a wingy helping).

Also understand that a guy in level flight, who rolls to 135' of bank, then does a straight pull will not spiral down but will eventually bring his nose back up to the horizon. Constant small corrections are needed to keep the spiral going down. Those corrections are to play the line between to steep or to shallow. To steep and your circle becomes bigger and a lessor or offensive guy will get in your chili easier. To shallow and the same thing happens or you bleed energy until your turn circle gets bigger, which is the same end result and happens quickly even in modern fighters.

In Bob Johnson's book he spoke about fighting a Spit and out rolling him such that he could keep inside his turn. What in effect I think he was doing was out rolling, and guessing from experience where the guy was going to set his lift vector (LV) (where his vertical tail will be pointed) then started his pull prior to the Spit finishing his roll. This in effect put or kept him inside the turn circle of a better turning airplane.

To gun a guy you need to be in range, in lead, and in plane. Imagine a rod going from the tail of your adversary out through his nose to infinity. That rod is where he is going, and your nose has to point at that to get hits on him (in lead and in range). It's literally like shooting skeet but even more fun.

Cheers,
Biff

 

[DarrenW]

To gun a guy you need to be in range, in lead, and in plane. Imagine a rod going from the tail of your adversary out through his nose to infinity. That rod is where he is going, and your nose has to point at that to get hits on him (in lead and in range). It's literally like shooting skeet but even more fun.

This is a great explanation. Thanks Biff for putting things in understandable language for non-fliers like myself.

 

[CORSNING]

TURNING:

"Hellcat VS Shiden/Shiden-Kai Pacific Theater 1944-45" by Tony Holmes.
Page 67:
" Pilot of VF-47 who participated in this air battle came out of it with a tremendous
confidence in the F6F-5. They feel that their aircraft offers them tremendous advantages
in firepower, armor protection and speed over the Japanese "Zeke", "Tojo" [in reality the
N1K2-J] or "Tony". Even the F6Fs that were hit carried their pilots back to base. In
contrast, the Jap aircraft burned easily, often broke up when hit and seemed to lack
effective firepower when in a good offensive position. Moreover, the F6F-5 easily matches
the speed of the Japanese fighters. It is evident, however, that these Jap aircraft can
out-turn an F6F."
Page 69:
" Lt Hudson also told VF-9's Intelligence Officer 'although the George could turn
inside the F6F-5, its superior speed enabled it to stay with the George, despite being
pulled to the outside of the turns'."

When comparing the George to other aircraft it must be noted that the N1K1-J and
the N1K2-J were very different aircraft. JNAF pilots noted the following improvement
of the Shiden-kai:
Better forward visibility on the ground.
More sensitive control surfaces.
More reliable undercarriage.

Pilot Note: Aircraft of the Aces No.129 by Yasuho Izawa with Tony Holmes.
Page 59:
" He (Capt. Minoru Genda) knew that the Shiden's inferior performance - slower rate
of climb, top speed, less armament and shorter range - when compared to the Shiden-
Kai meant that the two aircraft could not employ formation tactics together."

 

[CORSNING]

The following list contains quotes from Aircraft of the Aces No.129,
J2M RAIDEN AND N1K1/2 SHIDEN / SHIDEN-KAI ACES by
Yasuho Izawa with Tony Holmes.

Concerning the N1K1-J Shiden:
" It [the undercarriage] was very poor - much worse than on the average
Japanese aircraft. When dive-bombing or strafing, if the aircraft reached
420 mph, the gear was apt to fall apart in the air. About a quarter of the
pilots we lost in combat fell for this reason. The Shiden-Kai got to be a
better airplane toward the end, however."

Concerning the N1K2-J Shiden-Kai:
" Unlike the J2M Raiden, the N1K2-J had not really been designed for
high altitude interceptions. Indeed, according to Lt Cdr Shiga, the fighter's
Homare 21 engine suffered significant loss of power above 21,000 ft."
" ..., the P-47N pilots were quickly above their opponents thanks to
their fighter's superior performance at medium-to-high altitude."
" The 'George' compared favorably with the Corsair (FG-1D) in speed,
had good diving characteristics and could outmaneuver it."
" Naval aviators from VF-17 also noted that the enemy fighters [N1K2-J]
had excellent climbing characteristics and superior speed. When confronted
with Hellcats on their tail, the Japanese pilots would snaproll to the left,
their automatic combat flaps having saved them time and time again."

 

[CORSNING]

Shiden-Kai performance and fuel:

I believe the Shiden-Kai was (could have been) a true 400 mph fighter.
However because of the Homare's unreliable carburetors and the poor
fuel quality used by the Japanese in 1944-45, the Homare 21 and Shiden-Kai
never reached their potential.
From Aircraft of the Aces No.129:
" The performance of the Homare engine continued to be lower than
expected. Fuel quality was down to 85 octane because it was mixed with an
oil extract from pine tree roots - this proved to be very volatile. Pilots in the
front line still claimed that the Shiden-Kai's performance was good up to
30,000 ft."

From http://www.wwiiaircraftperformance.org/japan/USNTMJ-X-38_N-2.pdf

A., 1. During the war the air arm of the Japanese Fleet used a 92 CFR-M
octane number combat aviation gasoline until 1942, at which time the
octaine number was lowered to 91. This octane requirement was maintained
for the balance of the war except during the latter months when the octane
number was dropped to 87 for summer grade fuel.
A., 2. Aviation fuel of 100 octane grade was produced in experimental
quantities only.
A., 7. The severe shortage of petroleum in 1945 stimulated intensive research
on producing aviation gasoline from a variety of substitute sources, including
pine root oil, soya bean oil rubber, alcohol from sweet potatoes, high and
low-temperature tar, camphor, orange peel, birch bark, and pine needles.

Wonder how all the other countries fighters would perform on sweet potatoes
and tar?

And about the whole TAIC Reports thing, I believe the performances listed for
the early Japanese aircraft (1941-43) were probably very close. However, if you
notice in these TAIC reports, 92 octane is listed as the fuel supply. As stated
above, 92 octane was discontinued somewhere in 1942. As for the late war
fighters listed in the TAIC reports, they are potential performance figures that
might have been reached IF they could have been supplied with the 100
octane experimental fuel the Japanese DID have...( a what-if only).

 

[Vincenzo]

In the TAIC reports fuel octane rating is reported, i don't think they estimated performances with a fuel with a different octane rating

 

[DarrenW]

Naval aviators from VF-17 also noted that the enemy fighters [N1K2-J]
had excellent climbing characteristics and superior speed.

This statement might lead one to believe that the NIK2 was faster than the Hellcat but in reality the pilots of VF-17 were referring to 'typical' enemy fighters encountered up to that time (Zekes, Oscars, and Tonys). By comparison the Shiden-Kai was indeed faster than these earlier Japanese fighters.

 

[Acheron]

This old thread still relevant?
Ki-100 and N1K-J performance

 

[GrauGeist]

They feel that their aircraft offers them tremendous advantages in firepower, armor protection and speed over the Japanese "Zeke", "Tojo" [in reality the N1K2-J] or "Tony".

Weird snafu going on there with the code-names.
The "Tony" was the KI-61, the KI-44 was the "Tojo" and of course, the N1K was "George".