The one most over-rated plane of WWII

[special ed]

I wouldn't bother replying that totally silly comment, but I shall.
Name me another small twin engine amphibian that's been in service as long and is as versatile ?
I'll wait.

JRF Goose - A real/genuine small amfib

 

[SaparotRob]

Ya know, now that you mention it, The Admiral had brought up a "what if" Buffalo interception of the Japanese strike against PoW and Repulse.
A mind is a terrible thing to lose.

 

[R Leonard]

Getting out my rather hefty copy of Mikesh's book again... tum tee tum... Yes, he states that the aircraft arrived at NAS North Island in August 1942...

Yes, as Mikesh's book says (and I have my own copy) the Atukan Zero arrived in San Diego in August 1942. But it did not fly until Eddie Sanders took it up on 16 September, period, end.

 

[nuuumannn]

No. 488 (New Zealand) Squadron first encountered A6Ms on 12 January 1942, during their first tangle with the enemy, during the first encounter the squadron made on that day, their foe was Army Ki-27s, but according to one Buffalo pilot, he was chased by a Zero. Over the next few weeks the squadron encountered A6Ms on most combat engagements as the escorts for the naval bombers, G4Ms, the squadron was attacking, with Ki-43s typically escorting the Army bombers, Ki-21s, which were claimed by the unit's pilots.

 

[nuuumannn]

Yes, as Mikesh's book says (and I have my own copy) the Atukan Zero arrived in San Diego in August 1942. But it did not fly until Eddie Sanders took it up on 156 September, period, end.

I suspect a misunderstanding, I wasn't saying you were wrong, just that the book stated it arrived in August and based on your reaction perhaps I should have made that clearer. It was certainly not intended to confuse you, R.Leonard, so apologies if it did.

 

[R Leonard]

Not confused, just trying to keep everyone straight on timelines and such. I sometimes tend to be just a little pedantic which should not be taken personally.

 

[nuuumannn]

Not confused, just trying to keep everyone straight on timelines and such. I sometimes tend to be just a little pedantic which should not be taken personally.

Not at all, R.Leonard, your interjections are most welcome and fascinating to read.

 

[MCamp]

Ya know, now that you mention it, The Admiral had brought up a "what if" Buffalo interception of the Japanese strike against PoW and Repulse.
A mind is a terrible thing to lose.

Any air cover would have been better than none i suppose

 

[MCamp]

Since you asked, I think the F6F series, especially the F6F-5 was probably the best all round fighter of the war.
Easy to fly, easy land, good at what it was designed to do, it took on all comers in both major theaters with a winning record.
Bordering on excellent in air to air, decent in air to ground with a passable ground delivery load out.
Not the flashiest or the fastest, kind of like a hammer, not much to look at, but damned good at what it was supposed to do.
Again, my opinion only and not up for discussion.
And BTW, don't let the Grumman logo make you think I'm biased. I do like Grumman Iron, but my passion/obsession is their amphibians, not so much the fighters, they're okay, but not my real thing. You want to get into pissing contest, start someting about the Widgeon, you'll lose.

Would have been great to see the Hellcat get a four bladed propeller like the Corsair, but she already could do the job so we didn't get to see that as grumman didn't change things very much if the plane was already good enough for the the job.

 

[J4F-2]

The XF6F-6 got one and it worked better than the 3 blade with a top speed of 417 mph and was supposed to go into production in 1944, but it used the same engine as the F4U-4 which had precedence.

 

[wuzak]

Would have been great to see the Hellcat get a four bladed propeller like the Corsair, but she already could do the job so we didn't get to see that as grumman didn't change things very much if the plane was already good enough for the the job.

Some more familiar with the Corsair may be able to confirm - the F4U-4, that had its first deliveries in early 1945, was the first Corsair to have the 4 lade prop.

 

[FLYBOYJ]

The XF6F-6 got one and it worked better than the 3 blade with a top speed of 417 mph and was supposed to go into production in 1944, but it used the same engine as the F4U-4 which had precedence.

I don't think it was a matter of "engine precedence" and although the 417 mph top speed is thrown around in many publications ,there seems to be no flight test or performance charts indicating this unless Mike Williams has them stashed somewhere. One of our members mentioned in an old post about this that there is also a Grumman report that indicated the XF6F-6 made 425 mph at 25,000, (July 1944, flown by Grumman test pilot Pat Gallo) but as it was a prototype this might not be representative of the performance of a combat laden aircraft.

The Navy took deliveries of the F4U-4 in January 1945 and in it's combat configuration showed a top speed of 448 mph. Although the F6F-6 would have been a great aircraft I think that disruption of the production line coupled with the potential of greater growth of the F4U series caused the Navy not to pursue the -6.

 

[Thumpalumpacus]

Any air cover would have been better than none i suppose

Especially when we consider that the G3Ms/G4Ms were unescorted and flying either medium altitude level bomb runs, or low-level torpedo runs. It would have been much harder to, say, anvil Repulse and get four hits had there been some Buffaloes denying them a smooth and steady run-in.

 

[BobB]

Generally true, but only up to a certain point. The inferior plane has to be at least somewhat comparable. Somehow I don't think that well-trained American pilots flying Brewster Buffaloes would have done nearly as well. And the part about "training" did not involve magic; even the best-trained American Wildcat pilot could not beat a Zero in a classic dogfight. Rather, the Americans learned from combat experience what the Zero's weaknesses were and found a way to use the Wildcat's stronger points to good effect. They could not have done that if the Wildcat didn't have any strong points.

(But I will ask others with greater knowledge: would the Thach Weave have worked as well with Buffaloes?)

Geoff Fisken, an inexperienced pilot, became an ace flying Brewsters in Singapore. While he was inexperienced, he had more time in the Brewster than most of his companions as he had done test flights on airplanes after their assembly. He also mentioned that they lost a lot of pilots learning what they should and shouldn't do. No primary source but I recall a comment that Marion Carl said he could have done as well at Guadalcanal with Brewsters as with Wildcats.

 

[FLYBOYJ]

Geoff Fisken, an inexperienced pilot, became an ace flying Brewsters in Singapore. While he was inexperienced, he had more time in the Brewster than most of his companions as he had done test flights on airplanes after their assembly. He also mentioned that they lost a lot of pilots learning what they should and shouldn't do. No primary source but I recall a comment that Marion Carl said he could have done as well at Guadalcanal with Brewsters as with Wildcats.

I'm reading the book "Jolly Rogers" by Capt Tom Blackburn (VF-17 fame) and he felt the F2A was inadequate for combat but good for fleet training especially as a transition into the F4F.

 

[BobB]

I'm reading the book "Jolly Rogers" by Capt Tom Blackburn (VF-17 fame) and he felt the F2A was inadequate for combat but good for fleet training especially as a transition into the F4F.

Someone who flew worn out F2A's in training said he would have been more confident taking an SNJ into combat. That's probably an exageration but a worn out R-1820 might not compare well with a new R-1340. Exactly which version of the Buffalo someone flew could have affected their opinion as well.

 

[FLYBOYJ]

Someone who flew worn out F2A's in training said he would have been more confident taking an SNJ into combat. That's probably an exageration but a worn out R-1820 might not compare well with a new R-1340. Exactly which version of the Buffalo someone flew could have affected their opinion as well.

I believe Blackburn got some pretty decent ships into his unit despite being fleet rejects. He was in VF-2 when they first got the Buffalo and was the unit's maintenance officer so I think he somewhat knew what he was doing. Now - "worn out R-1820s"? In what capacity? How do you know they were "worn out" or do you have proof of this? There were support organizations who overhauled engines (for individual squadrons) as they came due based on manufacturer requirements so I'd like to know where you think these engines were "worn out" or if individual squadrons were flying aircraft with engines beyond TBO? Additionally, what makes you think the any of the F2A-2s operated by VF-2/3 were "worn out" when they only been in service between 18 months and 2 years in peacetime conditions?

 

[ssnider]

The F2A3's were used continuously as advanced trainers after Midway until they wore out or the war ended. Most pilots that flew the m as trainers discripe them as worn out slugs.

 

[MCamp]

Geoff Fisken, an inexperienced pilot, became an ace flying Brewsters in Singapore. While he was inexperienced, he had more time in the Brewster than most of his companions as he had done test flights on airplanes after their assembly. He also mentioned that they lost a lot of pilots learning what they should and shouldn't do. No primary source but I recall a comment that Marion Carl said he could have done as well at Guadalcanal with Brewsters as with Wildcats.

Maybe, the Brewster were too fragile for carrier operations thus the F4F was clearly better in that situation, though I imagine there would have been more damage on Henderson landings as well but to a lesser degree. Buffalo was also less well armed as the wildcat. Carl was an expert pilot so posssibly true for him but lesser pilots would likely not have done as well

 

[FLYBOYJ]

The F2A3's were used continuously as advanced trainers after Midway until they wore out or the war ended. Most pilots that flew the m as trainers discripe them as worn out slugs.

Your source? And the pilots using them in training were just transitioning out of advanced trainers (N2S/ SNJ) so what would they compare them too??