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I mentioned some books before,read,learn.If the enemy does what is logical then why do u you attribute that to ''disinformation'' ?
I'v read a lot on intelligence in ww2.So i get mad when i read things that are patently false.
Ctrain, arguement is not a problem but you cannot argue about results. If the allied forces did not think disinformation was important would they have spent so much time and energy on it with a major invasion in the works.
The key element of Fortitude South was Operation Quicksilver. It entailed the creation of the belief in German minds that the Allied force consisted of two army groups, 21st Army Group under Montgomery (the genuine Normandy invasion force), and 1st U.S. Army Group (FUSAG) (a fictitious force under General George Patton), positioned in southeastern England for a crossing at the Pas de Calais.
At no point were the Germans fed false documents describing the invasion plans. Instead they were allowed to construct a misleading order of battle for the Allied forces. To mount a massive invasion of Europe from England, military planners had little choice but to stage units around the country with those that would land first nearest to the embarkation point. As a result of FUSAG's having been placed in the south-east, German intelligence would (and did) deduce that the center of the invasion force was opposite Calais, the point on the French coast closest to England and therefore a likely landing point.
To facilitate this deception, additional buildings were constructed; dummy vehicles and landing craft were placed around possible embarkation points. Furthermore, Patton was often photographed visiting these locations. It was originally intended to make many such fakes, but the extremely low level of German aerial reconnaissance and the belief that most German spies were under British control meant that such effort were reduced to a minimum. A huge amount of false radio traffic was transmitted, commensurate with a force of that size.
A deception of such a size required input from many organisations, including MI5, MI6, SHAEF via Ops B, and the armed services. Information from the various deception agencies was organized by and channeled through the London Controlling Section under the direction of Lieutenant-Colonel John Bevan.
The Allies were able to judge the effectiveness of these strategies. ULTRA intelligence — that gained from the breaking of German codes and ciphers, such as the Enigma machine — was able to provide an indication of the German high command's responses to their actions. They maintained the pretence of FUSAG and other forces threatening Pas de Calais for some considerable time after D-Day, possibly even as late as September 1944. This was vital to the success of the Allied plan, since it forced the Germans to keep most of their reserves bottled up waiting for an attack on Calais which never came, thereby allowing the Allies to maintain and build upon their marginal foothold in Normandy.
So convinced were the Germans by this deception that they ignored several "leaks". One such leak was the crossword that came out in The Herald and Review six days before the beach landings were to take place. Some of the answers consisted of Overlord, Neptune, Gold and other key terms to the invasions; the US government later declared that this was just a coincidence. Through the Cicero affair, the Germans obtained documents containing references to Overlord, but these documents lacked all detail. Double Cross agents, such as Juan Pujol (code named Garbo), played an important role in convincing the German High Command that Normandy was at best a diversionary attack. U.S. Major General Henry Miller, chief supply officer of the US 9th Air Force, during a party at Claridge's Hotel in London complained to guests of the supply problems he was having but that after the invasion, which he told them would be before 15 June supply would be easier. After being told, Eisenhower reduced Miller to Colonel and sent him back to the U.S. where he subsequently retired. Another such leak was Gen. Charles de Gaulle's radio message after D-Day. He, unlike all the other leaders, stated that this invasion was the real invasion. This had the potential to ruin the Allied deceptions Fortitude North and Fortitude South. For example, Gen. Eisenhower referred to the landings as the initial landings.
Ok, if it was just that easy, why didn't the Allies simply bum-rush the Germans at the beginning of the war?I dont understand what you're trying to say.How could the allies NOT outnumber the germans?
If the enemy does what is "logical" based off of false information, then that is "disinformation". How do you attribute that to anything else.
I have actually sat in on intel briefs before flying combat missions. The information received was not always accurate. That is the point.
Ok, if it was just that easy, why didn't the Allies simply bum-rush the Germans at the beginning of the war?
You say you have alot of info regarding intel yet you toss off the notion of counter-intelligence as a propeganda ruse instead of seeing how vital it was to the outcome of the war.
Yes, there was a numerical advantage with the Allies, but in the grand scheme of things, the Germans were VERY good at bleeding out thier opponents. A shining example of that would be the horrific losses the Soviets suffered. And yet the Soviets outnumbered the Germans...
Breaking the Enigma code and baiting the Germans with misinformation caused the Germans to apply thier assets in areas away from Allied operations that would ultimately save Allied lives and allow for relatively unopposed access to the European continent.
Once the Allies gained a foothold on European soil, the Germans were faced with two collapsing fronts, much like being caught between a hammer and an anvil.
And as a MAJOR example, the battle of Midway in the Pacific was won by breaking the Japanese code and reacting on that information. Breaking the Axis power's codes and baiting them with misinformation was as critical of a tool as was the infantry on the ground or aircraft over the front.
You CANNOT discredit the key role that the espionage played in any aspect of the war. To do so is simply being ignorant of ACTUAL FACT, regardless of your "opinion"...
The ''germans were so dumb we tricked them and won the war '' story has been debunked years ago.First from zetterling's ''Normandy 1944'' book and recently from Mary Barbier's ''D-day deception: Operation Fortitude and the Normandy invasion'' .Yes disinformation played a part but writing whole books on the subject and claiming that it was vital for the normandy victory is simply crude propaganda
The Allies were able to judge the effectiveness of these strategies. ULTRA intelligence — that gained from the breaking of German codes and ciphers, such as the Enigma machine — was able to provide an indication of the German high command's responses to their actions. They maintained the pretence of FUSAG and other forces threatening Pas de Calais for some considerable time after D-Day, possibly even as late as September 1944. This was vital to the success of the Allied plan, since it forced the Germans to keep most of their reserves bottled up waiting for an attack on Calais which never came, thereby allowing the Allies to maintain and build upon their marginal foothold in Normandy..
Hmm, just like the Italians had an overwhelming superiority in Africa in 1940?No it wasn't vital, because the Anglo-Americans already had overwhelming superiority in men ,tanks,artillery,aircraft etc.
A thousand pardons, your Lordship...please let me kiss the bottom of your sandals...NOTMoronic posts , circular reasoning...
Their mobile forces on the other hand where not concentrated there but ready to move either in Calais or Normandy.
But, the reserve forces were not thrown into the mix right away because the Germans completely, 100%, totally believed the landings at Normandy were merely a diversion to take attention, men, materials away from the "real" attack at Pas de Calais. When higher ups in the German chain of command were asked to send in reinforcements, they request was denied because the Germans "knew" Normandy was a diversion, due to disinformation, false reports, false army traffic, mis-intelligence. Many reserves units did not get called into action until the following day.