The successor for the Ju-88?

[davebender]

The exact defination of a "dive bomber" doesn't matter.

Ju-88A and Me-410A light bombers could place munitions on target far more accurately then level bombers. That's what counts. If you can deliver 50% of your bombs within 50 meters of the aiming point then you don't need a huge bomb load or hundreds of aircraft to destroy a target. A single gruppe of 36 Me-410As can get the job done.

 

[Vincenzo]

From de.wiki

Me 410 A-1, 394 built, fast bomber (they can dive bombing but were used also for not diving bombing)
Me 410 A-1/U-2, 277 built, destroyer
Me 410 A-3, 74 built, reconaissance (there were also six reconaissance A-1/U-1)
Me 410 B-1, 61 built, fast bomber
Me 410 B-2, 324 built, destroyer
Me 410 B-3, 35 built, reconaissance

so of 1.171 Me 410 (not prototypes), 455 were fast bomber (39%), 51% destroyer, 10% recce

 

[tomo pauk]

One thing that goes against the Bf-110/210/410 as a fully fledged bombers is that those were all the low-wing planes. Thus, the bomb bay is either non-existent or too small, away from CoG. A mid wing, or high wing design is far better suited; if the plane is used as a fighter, the bomb bay can contain guns and/or their ammo. Even fuel tanks.

 

[davebender]

Not an issue for the Me-210 /Me-410. Well protected wing tanks contained 2,420 liters. It could fly a long way with only internal fuel and drop tanks were an option.

 

[Siegfried]

Ju 88 S-3 was basicly an cleaned up version with Jumo 213. Only a few were produced, and I think they were used mainly as pathfinders. According to ww2.dk, in late 1944 I. II./LG1 operated 50 to 60 of these aircraft in total. Some were also used by KG30 and KG66. But here you can indeed apply the saying "too few, too late".

Also, the unbuilt Ju 388 K-2 would have had pair of Jumo 222s.

The engine was presumably the Jumo 213A as the Jumo 213E with two stage super charger was not yet available? I am curious to know if the Jumo 213 engined used on the Ju 88S2 had any of the power boosting functions used on the FW 190D9. I beleive a few Ju 88S3 with the turbo charged BMW 801TQ with turbo charger were also built.

 

[Juha]

The engine was presumably the Jumo 213A as the Jumo 213E with two stage super charger was not yet available? I am curious to know if the Jumo 213 engined used on the Ju 88S2 had any of the power boosting functions used on the FW 190D9. I beleive a few Ju 88S3 with the turbo charged BMW 801TQ with turbo charger were also built.

Hello Siegfried
Yes 88S-3s were powered by 213As but power boosting by GM-1. The very few S-2s were powered by BMW 801TJs.

Juha

 

[tomo pauk]

Seems like 1943 is more complicated than 1944, engine-wise

 

[davebender]

The Ju-88 was the largest single German aircraft program. About 3,500 Ju-88 and Ju-188 airframes were produced during 1943. Only two engine types were available in quantities sufficient for that many Ju-88 airframes.
- 1,340hp Jumo 211F.
- 1,320hp (derated) DB605A.

The best way to improve the Ju-88 and several other aircraft types would be to make other German engine production decisions during 1935 to 1941.

 

[tomo pauk]

No quarrels about that, but the quirk is to propose an airframe that would extract every possible gain in performance from 'bread butter' engines

 

[davebender]

propose an airframe that would extract every possible gain in performance from 'bread butter' engines

Me-210C.
Light bomber / recon version should be powered by Jumo 211 engines. Night fighter version should be powered by DB605 engines. Build the Fw-187 (DB605 engines) if you want a high endurance day fighter.

No other German airframes will perform as well with engines producing only 1,320 to 1,340hp.

 

[tomo pauk]

The light bomber is not what the Ju-88 was, the successor need to be at least as capable in that role. The Me-210 wont cut it here, such a plane would be supplanting the 110 anyway.
The thread does not specify that a historical 'German airframe' is to be used here - one can propose a design that should be far better than what they had in production in 1943.

 

[davebender]

light bomber is not what the Ju-88 was, the successor need to be at least as capable in that role

A level bomber version of the Ju-88A can remain in production powered by Jumo 211F engines but the dive bomber and night fighter roles should be given to the higher performance Me-210C.

Proposed monthly production.
200. Ju-88 / Ju-188 level bomber.
.....100 fewer Ju-88 airframes then were produced historically.
.....He-111H will end production.
.....Do-217 and He-177 long range bombers continue low rate production.
.....Ju-88H (stretched fuselage) variant possible for maritime patrol.

200. Me-210C dive bomber.
.....A long range precision bomber. Possibly also a naval torpedo bomber.

200. Me-210x night fighter.
.....Night fighter fuselage might look a lot like the Me-110G fuselage.
.....After teething problems are fixed this would be the only German night fighter aircraft in production.

100. Fw-187 heavy fighter.
High endurance missions. Possibly also for bomber interception. 4 nose mounted cannon = serious firepower.

 

[tomo pauk]

Shouldn't the 1943 medium bomber for LW be as capable as Mosquito? Capable to carry 1500 to 2000 kg, max speed when loaded 620-640 km/h, long distance capability with that payload, while cruising fast?

 

[Erich]

think the Recee H-1 variant was fine for it's use at it's time, there just were not enough available due to limited manufacturer quantities also if the anti-ship radar would of been created in 41 would of given the edge to the LW with it's low flying recon craft, at least for a time.

 

[davebender]

Me-210C carried more internal fuel, had superior armor protection, superior rear defense (i.e. remote barbettes) and could bomb more accurately. Mosquito had a larger bomb bay. The aircraft had similiar speed when powered by engines of similiar hp.

The Mosquito was superior in its most common WWII role - high altitude path finder for RAF Bomber Command. The Me-210C was superior as a long range precision bomber. 1943 Germany needs a long range precision bomber a lot more then they need a path finder aircraft.

 

[wuzak]

Me-210C carried more internal fuel, had superior armor protection, superior rear defense (i.e. remote barbettes) and could bomb more accurately. Mosquito had a larger bomb bay. The aircraft had similiar speed when powered by engines of similiar hp.

I disagree. The Me210 needed more powerful engines to go as fast.

The Mosquito was superior in its most common WWII role - high altitude path finder for RAF Bomber Command. The Me-210C was superior as a long range precision bomber. 1943 Germany needs a long range precision bomber a lot more then they need a path finder aircraft.

On what do you base that? That the Me 210 was designed to be able to drop bombs in a dive?

The Mosquito when used at low level was very precise. However, after May 1943 the role was left to the 2TAF and their FBVIs, which couldn't carry as many or as big bombs.

 

[Tante Ju]

I think top speeds are not too important when compare bomber speed. How was economical or maximum cruise speeds compare? bombers did not travel at top speeds!!

 

[Shortround6]

This is assuming that all the allied AA gunners are asleep or on leave. In order for the 210 to execute it's "precision" attack it is required to to attack using a dive bomber like attack profile is it not? Release of the bombs at an altitude 20mm guns if not .50 cal MG could reach? Precision they may be, acceptable losses for a continuing campaign may be a whole different story.

 

[wuzak]

I think top speeds are not too important when compare bomber speed. How was economical or maximum cruise speeds compare? bombers did not travel at top speeds!!

Ok, the top speed of the Me 210 was only slightly more than the maximum cruise speed of a Mosquito B.IV with similar horsepower (c.1400hp).

(Using figures from Wiki, which can be riski).

 

[Denniss]

Ok, the top speed of the Me 210 was only slightly more than the maximum cruise speed of a Mosquito B.IV with similar horsepower (c.1400hp).

(Using figures from Wiki, which can be riski).

I don't know where you found this but the english wiki has a cruise speed of 265mpg for the B.IV.

BTW the Ju 88 used the 1420PS Jumo 211J engine, the 211F was used in the He 111H. And for the use as night fighter there was neither sufficient space in the Bf 110 nor enough space in the Me 210/410. The Ju 88 C-6/R were sufficient in this role, the Ju 88G even better with good speed, range and defense.
The Ju 88 as tactical bomber was good although the external bombs caused a loss of speed, the He 111 was available as well with a wide array of ordnance to drop. For strategic/level bombers they had Do 217/He 177.