The successor for the Ju-88?

[wuzak]

I don't know where you found this but the english wiki has a cruise speed of 265mpg for the B.IV.

Sorry, info for the Me 210 I got from Wiki.

As you are no doubt aware, there are many different possible cruise speeds. From most economical to maximum (with maximum continuous power). From memory the B.IV could cruise at 330mph maximum continuous. I don't have all my references with me, so I don't know if I can find a source.

 

[Siegfried]

The Ju-88 was the largest single German aircraft program. About 3,500 Ju-88 and Ju-188 airframes were produced during 1943. Only two engine types were available in quantities sufficient for that many Ju-88 airframes.
- 1,340hp Jumo 211F.
- 1,320hp (derated) DB605A.

The best way to improve the Ju-88 and several other aircraft types would be to make other German engine production decisions during 1935 to 1941.

The Ju 188E (with BMW 801D2) was introduced in early 1943 with their first hard core mission in October 1943 (when they attacked a factory in Lincolnshire) and in early 1944 the Ju 188A (with Jumo 213A). Numbers were not great.

From incidental reading I believe most BMW801 equiped bombers only used the BMW801 engine with B4 fuel and so had only about 1540hp, not much more than the advanced versions of the Jumo 211J (eg the Jumo 211P)

BMW 801's did make it on the Ju 88R (basically an A4) modified as a fighter bomber or night fighters. The Latter Ju 88S and Ju 88G had the enlarged tail and strengthened body derived from the Ju 188 to more appropriatly handle the power of the new engines.

I rather think that the Ju 188 equiped with the remote controlled tail armament seen in the Ju 388 and dervived from the Ju 288 technology would have made a good choice especially if equiped with the DB603A engine which added 12mph over the radial engined version of the Do 217K versus Do 217M. There were Ju 188 prototypes built with manned tail turrets and a deepened enlearged fueselage designed to handle a higher proportion of their bombload internally.

 

[Denniss]

All Ju 188 with BMW 801 engines had the 801 G-2 which required C3 fuel to operate, those with B4 fuel were installed in the Do 217K (801L engines).
Ju 88R was based on the C-6 which itself was based on the A-4.

 

[tomo pauk]

Me-210C carried more internal fuel, had superior armor protection, superior rear defense (i.e. remote barbettes) and could bomb more accurately. Mosquito had a larger bomb bay. The aircraft had similiar speed when powered by engines of similiar hp.

The Mosquito was superior in its most common WWII role - high altitude path finder for RAF Bomber Command. The Me-210C was superior as a long range precision bomber. 1943 Germany needs a long range precision bomber a lot more then they need a path finder aircraft.

Germany in 1943 need a bomber that can fly 600 km/h when bombed-up (tad less if it's to be used in the Eastern front, tad more for ETO MTO), otherwise the fighters would get it as they got any bomber that that was slower than them. Despite the defensive armament protection the bombers were carrying. Mosquito was faster than 210, even with single-stage Merlins. It was fine choice to bomb from tree top, so the accuracy is in the ball park.

The 'simple solution' by yours truly would be the plane looking like a combination from Mosquito, A-26 and Ta-154 (mid- or high-wing layout), capable to carry 4 x 500 kg bombs, or 2 x 1000 kg, or one torpedo (maybe two); all in the bomb bay. Couple of HMGs as defence, 2 x 20 mm in front. Rest would've been modified by the mission/task.

 

[davebender]

'simple solution' by yours truly would be the plane looking like a combination from Mosquito, A-26 and Ta-154

A-26 and Ta-154 are far too heavy for the available engines.

Me-210C weighed about 5,500kg empty. Your proposed bomber cannot be much heavier if you want decent aerial performance with two 1,400hp engines.

 

[tomo pauk]

I'm trying to replicate the basic layout of the 3 TE planes, not the size.
The low-wing layout of the Me-210/410 would not allow for an unrestricted bomb bay, so it was 2 x 500 kg bombs max there.

 

[davebender]

Germany had too much invested in Ju-88 airframe production to cancel the program. The Ju-88 is going to remain in large scale production for the remainder of the war.

There's nothing wrong with the Ju-88 airframe which cannot be solved by more powerful engines. That's where RLM should focus planning when the Ju-88 enters service during 1939. Tell Junkers the Jumo 211 engine will be producing at least 1,600 reliable hp by 1943 or else the Ju-88 gets powered by Daimler-Benz engines. To make this threat credible RLM must continue to fund the DB603 engine program, at least at a low level.

 

[tomo pauk]

I can agree that there was nothing wrong with Ju-88. That does not mean that a better performer would be too much for LW. Looking after a 1600 HP engine in time when RLM was looking for 2000+ HP Jumo 222 and it's platforms (scheduled for 1942-43, one of them made by Junkers) does not seem like being on the top of agenda. But I agree that Germans needed 'plan B', to cover their bets in case 222 makes a flop, as it eventually did.
The bottleneck of the LW in ww2 were pilots, not airframes. A better plane can look after it's crew better than another that is not as good; Ju-88 bomber in the airspace contested by Allies in 1942-43 and on was a fair game for their day fighters. Ditto for the NFs, once Beaufigters and, later, Mosquitoes entered the fray.

 

[davebender]

That decision must be made during 1938 rather then devoting half of the total German airframe workforce to the Ju-88 program.

 

[Shortround6]

You cannot dictate physics with a political or military directive. Telling Junkers that 211 MUST make XXX horsepower on 87 octane gas leaves Junkers one option and one option only. Increase rpm/piston speed to level never used before or since on a piston aircraft engine. They pulled it off with the 213 but they were going into unknown territory.
The use of 87 octane limits the BMEP of the cylinder. Since power is dependent on BMEP, engine size and engine speed Junkers would be stuck. If you change the cylinder size by enough to matter it is no longer a 211/213 and they are working with a whole new engine.
You could make all the threats you want. Funding a 44.5 liter engine to spur Junkers into making a better effort with a 35 liter engine just shows what Junkers was up against.

 

[davebender]

I see two options.

1. Develop the Jumo 211 engine to produce at least 1,600hp. Just as Daimler-Benz accomplished with the DB605 engine by the fall of 1943.

2. Junkers will reap huge profits from the Ju-88 airframe program as long as the aircraft remains competitive. They could concede that the next generation Ju-88 should be powered by DB603 engines and work with Daimler-Benz to make it successful. There's nothing wrong with Daimler-Benz making money just as long as Junkers also continues to rake in a large profit.

 

[Shortround6]

OK what DB 605 was making 1600hp in the fall of 1943 on 87 octane fuel and without MW/50?

If you are trying to power bombers you need genuine 1600-1800hp engines with climb and max continuous ratings to match. Not sprint rated engines. As an example the 1700HP R-2600 in a B-25 was good for 1350hp at 15,000ft for as long as the fuel lasted. It was good for 1500hp up to a bit over 2000 meters as long as the fuel lasted. No 30 minute rating.

What was the 30 minute rating ( or longer ) rating of this wonder 605 engine?

 

[tomo pauk]

For the DB-605 to acomplish more than 1475 PS (Notlesitung (Take off emergency)- rating for 1 minute; 30 min rating (Steig Kampflesitung - Climb Combat power) was 1300 PS at SL, 1400 at 2km, 1260 at 5,8 km - all for 1943) we need to go in 1944. Catch is that Junkers did have versions of the 211 offering either comparable values, or better. So there is no need to make any threats.

 

[Shortround6]

Thank you Tomo.

As I said, you can't change physics. The only ways to get lots more power from the Same size engine is either more rpm or more pressure in the cylinders. Pressure is limited by the octane rating of the fuel although this ( the pressure) can be increased by the use of water injection.

 

[rank amateur]

It seems to me, that without engines producing at least 1600 hp, it is impossible to have a 600 km Ju-88 successor. At least not one with the same dimensions as the Ju-88. I would think the only answer is either a scaled down Ju-88 or a mid winged me-410 with an altered fuselage with sufficient space for at least 2.5 ton of bombs. Both should be cleaned up. No bumps, lumps or what ever to squeeze as much speed as possible out of the available engines. No easy answer either way.

 

[cimmex]

Scale down an existing airframe is the same as building a new one. Who should carry the costs, Junkers alone? I don't believe the RLM will fund a project which was not ordered by them.
cimmex

 

[rank amateur]

I think this questions falls outside the perimeters of this thread. It's just an what if situation. Nevertheless if either company came up with a viable successor they would have a strong argument for funding. The RAF never specified the DH98 either

 

[davebender]

I think the 1,479hp Jumo 211P would be good enough for an improved Ju-88 if it's ready for mass production during 1942. The same engine would improve performance of other several other aircraft too. But can it be developed earlier then historical?

 

[Denniss]

If the rpm increase was with the same engine block as used in the 211 F/J engine then it might have been ready in 1942, if they had to tinker with the block to strengthen it again it would probably be delayed so there's no loss in the engine production.

 

[davebender]

An advantage of using the Jumo 211. Large scale production was established during the late 1930s. By 1942 Germany actually had surplus Jumo 211 production capacity. After paying to produce Jumo 211s on such a scale RLM should take steps to insure engine development procedes as rapidly as technically possible.

Let's assume RLM oversight of Jumo 211 engine development produces results. The Jumo 211P enters mass production during early 1942. It will continue to power aircraft such as the Ju-87 and Ju-88 because it's available and there's a war on. Aircraft production cannot be disrupted by major changes but we can still improve the Ju-88A4.

- Adopt more aerodynamic fuselage historically used for Ju-88G series.
- Attempt to increase bomb bay capacity.
- Replace all rear firing defensive weapons with a pair of remote control barbettes similiar to Me-210.
- Build some Ju-88H extended range variants for maritime patrol. Ideally this should carry a single Hs-293 guided anti-shipping weapon.