The successor for the Ju-88?

[tomo pauk]

What was wrong with the 88 wing? AFAIK it was a strong and dive approved wing.
cimmex

There was nothing wrong with it, if we want it to remain a 500-550 km/h speed range airplane. Using the more streamlined wing profile should make the succesor being faster. The full-span flaps are there to help at lower speeds, where the laminar-flow wings were not providing as much lift as 'classic' ones.

 

[davparlr]

Okay, from 'classic' to 'radical' successor of the success story
A 'medium 88' design featuring somewhat larger bomb bay, capacity for 3 crew members in front of the bomb bay, laminar flow wing (goes for all proposals from your's truly), high lift devices like ones at Ar-240, engines ranging from Jumo 211 N/P/R, BMW-801 or DB-603 (depending on task availability).
The 'big 88' would be sized up to maybe Do-217, tailored towards DB-606/610 engines. A design better suited for bombing than for NF jobs (those should the succesor of the Bf-110 take over ).
An '88 mixer' would be a Douglas Mixmaster lookalike, two Jumos driving a prop each. Should be a good bomber NF.
The 'push-pull 88' is a clone of the Do-335, with two Jumos, but I'd really like to see such a design featuring the DB-610s at the ends. 6000 HP

You beat me to it. I was thinking of a slightly larger Do-335.

 

[Juha]

Then why not just use the Do-217? It was an excellent airframe and unlike the Ju-88 it had a proper bomb bay.

IMHO Do 217 lacked Ju 88 manoeuvrability, Do 17 was a pilot's aeroplane but Do 217 wasn't. But on the bomb bay I agree, it was big for a twin.

Juha

 

[davebender]

A 50% larger Ju-88 would also lack Ju-88 maneuverability.

I don't think this challenge can be solved without the DB603 engine entering mass production early on. It's the single most useful Ju-88 improvement.

 

[jim]

In my opinion the Ju-88 requires only two major improvements.
- 1,750hp engines to boost power to weight ratio.
- An internal bomb bay able to carry at least four 250kg bombs.

I think the bomb bay can be fixed. The engine problem cannot be solved if RLM shoots down the DB603 as happened historically.

Mr Davebender
I think the bomb bay was the unsolved problem. They treid in Ju 88 A15 and Ju 88 S2 to use balged , underbelly bomb bays but the drag produced was not worthing the effort

My opinion is that ju 88 ,in realistic scenarios, could be replaced by two aircrafts.
1) for the attakc ,dive bombing, heavy fighter, maritime patrol, train busting,night fighting ( i know Mr Erich arguments but can not understand them) and intruder roles could be replaced by Me 410 . Me410 had excellent penetration speed with its internal bomb bay, and general superior agility and performance. The aerodynamicaly improved -B model would be even better. Could not carry the same bomb load but 1000kgr was enough for a light bomber and surviability was most important
The smaller size of 410 makes it a better user of the 1750 hp class engines. In my opinion ,even the clean Ju88 S, Ju 188 S&Tand Ju 388s needed more powerful engines than 1750 ps to achieve adequate performance for the hostile enviroments of late war and still retained the bomb bay problem
2) For the medium / heavy bomber role i would propose an aircraft derived from Do 217K
a) use Db610 engines b) use the standart 217 fuselage, not the larger 317 s fuselage for drag reasons c) replace the entire nose 4 crew section with that from Ju 388K L . It was smaller, 3 man crew and without ventral gondola. Would reduce drag considerably and provide even better performance than 416 mph of Do 317B .For CoG reasons that capsule could also be better armored. d) use a tail remote control turretwith 2x13mm , and a rear canopy remote control twin turret. e) retain dive bombing equipment for eastern front units, remove it for western front units

And a scientific fiction scenario: Buy from the japanese the superb KI 67 Betty plans, stick the DB610s , remove the waist MG bulges , reduce the crew to 3/4 and you have a winner for every job required !

 

[rank amateur]

[
The 'push-pull 88' is a clone of the Do-335, with two Jumos, but I'd really like to see such a design featuring the DB-610s at the ends. 6000 HP [/QUOTE]

If you want to go radical, why not go for a do-635 configurating powered by 4 db-610's. Enough space for at least a 2000 kg bombload or more and fast enough to frustrate any mustang pilot contemplating interception

 

[wuzak]

In my opinion the Ju-88 requires only two major improvements.
- 1,750hp engines to boost power to weight ratio.
- An internal bomb bay able to carry at least four 250kg bombs.

I think the bomb bay can be fixed. The engine problem cannot be solved if RLM shoots down the DB603 as happened historically.

Didn't some variants of the Ju 88 already have 1750hp class engines - ie BMW801s?

 

[rank amateur]

As far as I know certainly the ju88 G and ju88 S did.

 

[davebender]

Didn't some variants of the Ju 88 already have 1750hp class engines - ie BMW801s?

Not many as there weren't enough BMW801 engines to meet demand prior to 1944.

Unlike the DB603, the BMW801 engine shortage cannot be solved by different production decisions as the BMW801 engine required a lengthy development period. Furthermore the BMW801 engine requires C3 fuel to produce the same power as a DB603 engine running on B4 fuel.

 

[Denniss]

If we use take-off power then they had 1700PS engines with the BMW 801 G-2, the G-6 got the Jumo 213 with 1750 PS (just like some late A-series).

 

[davebender]

Those are late 1943 / early 1944 aircraft. The Ju-88A entered mass production during the fall of 1939. We should be planning for improvements two years in the future. Our improved Ju-88 should enter service NLT 1942.

However if you want to wait until January 1944.......
The 1,800hp DB605ASM engine will be available. That provides ample time to tinker with the Me-210 until the airframe is perfect. The Me-210C should fly like a bat out of hell with 3,600 total hp.

 

[rank amateur]

So maybe the best successor for the ju88 would be the an improved me410 (the 210 got such a bad rap in the luftwaffe, that they changed the number). According to wiki the ju88a4 was able to deliver up to 3000kg (internally and externally) of bombs, be it with rato. I would gather the 1000kg load for the me410 would not be sufficient. Perhaps we can enlarge the fuselage to increase the bombload? If the mosquito was able to deliver a 4000lb bomb, then our me410? should be able to do at least the same.

 

[wuzak]

So maybe the best successor for the ju88 would be the an improved me410 (the 210 got such a bad rap in the luftwaffe, that they changed the number). According to wiki the ju88a4 was able to deliver up to 3000kg (internally and externally) of bombs, be it with rato. I would gather the 1000kg load for the me410 would not be sufficient. Perhaps we can enlarge the fuselage to increase the bombload? If the mosquito was able to deliver a 4000lb bomb, then our me410? should be able to do at least the same.

Weights, power and size are all about the same as the Mosquito. Not sue if the fuselage is wide enough or the bomb bay deep enough - maybe a bulged bomb bay could be incorporated as per Mosquito.

You might have to dump some guns - particularly the barbettes.

 

[wuzak]

The bomb bay size and location may have been a problem for bigger (internal) bomb loads.

http://www.britmodeller.com/walkarounds/aircraft/me410/DSC04677.jpg

 

[rank amateur]

Great pic Wuzak, I had been looking for drawings for the dimension of the bomb bay. Couldn't find anything decent

Guess it's obvious then. I don't think you could squeese anything more than 2 500kg bombs in that bomb bay. Perhaps a second bomb bay in lieu of the Barbettes. Seems a shame cos I understand these were rather efffective. Don't know if we might experience CG issues though.

 

[Denniss]

Maximum bombload of the Me210/410 was 1000kg, one special 1000kg bomb or two standard 500kg bombs. Mtt planned a redesign of the nose section but I don't know if the bombbay was to be enlarged as well.
Typical load of the Ju 88 was 2000kg external - for a 3000kg load you'd have to stick to wing fuel tanks only. Max internal load was 28x50kg.

The Me 410 could have been used to replace the Ju 88 as a light/fast bomber and, if equipped with DB 603AA or E engines it could get both speed and max alt upgrades. There was not sufficient space for a third crew member and equipment to be used as night fighter.
To replace the Ju 88 as medium bomber the RLM should have focussed on the Do 217 - increase wingspan thus reduce wing loading and the handling should improve a lot. It could already carry a lot of bombs over a decent range - 3 tonnes internally at 2000+ km (the He 111/Ju 88 could carry just two tonnes at this range).

 

[davebender]

I wouldn't change a thing.

The Me-210C / Me-410A were dive bombers. Weapons delivery accuracy about 10 times as good as for a B-17. A gruppe of 36 Me-210Cs would carry 72 x 500kg bombs and most of them will hit a factory size target. More HE on target then can be accomplished with hundreds of heavy bombers @ 30,000 feet.

 

[Denniss]

Ju 87 was a dive-bomber, Me 210/410 were dive-capable aircraft.

 

[johnbr]

I would put the Jumo-213 engine in the Ju-88 or the Jumo 222 ef with some aerodynamic clean up.

 

[koivis]

I would put the Jumo-213 engine in the Ju-88 or the Jumo 222 ef with some aerodynamic clean up.

Ju 88 S-3 was basicly an cleaned up version with Jumo 213. Only a few were produced, and I think they were used mainly as pathfinders. According to ww2.dk, in late 1944 I. II./LG1 operated 50 to 60 of these aircraft in total. Some were also used by KG30 and KG66. But here you can indeed apply the saying "too few, too late".

Also, the unbuilt Ju 388 K-2 would have had pair of Jumo 222s.