The thread formally known as the P-39 vs. ze Germans thread.

[michael rauls]

My instructor did not want me going near sims during initial training.

That is certainly another perspective to consider.
What gave me the idea was there have been a couple guys in the news recently that having never flown before, only practicing in simulators were able to steel and successfuly fly in one case a rather large/ complex multi engine aircraft and fly them successfully( not that I plan on steeling aircraft or anything else for that matter) so it got me thinking that a good sim might prepare you for flying in the same way driving a car around in an empty parking lot kinda prepares you to drive on the street. That is you could learn the basic thought process to become automatic in a safe environment thereby, at least theoretically, avoiding actually doing those motions and procedures in response to sensory input for the first time in a less safe environment. Like one where it would be possible to end up as a heap of ruble at the end of the runway which would be embarrassing at the verry least.
To put it another way, its one thing to watch someone tell you when this happens do that, when that happens do this, no matter how many times there still is a brain wireing process that needs to take place when you actually do those things in response to sensory input.
Best example I can give for this kind of going through the motions in response to tactile and visual input is learning jiu jitsu( similar to wrestling but I would say more technical and less athleticism dependant) with a passive partner first(called a uke) before actually rolling with a fully resistant opponent. It really helps. It's one thing to watch the instructor say do this, do that and see him demonstrate. It's quite another to do the movements with an oponent even a passive one. Then when its time to actually roll your not trying to learn the muscle memory at the same time your getting clobbered by your oponent. The feel is of course different with a fully resistant opponent but you know at least the basic motions to go through instinctively already because you already have done them.
I thought the same learning process might work well with learning to fly but it's sounding like maybe not so much.
On a final note, aren't there better simulators than a desk top. Ones that you actually get into that would give you more realistic sensory input to learn with?
Thanks again.

 

[special ed]

Our model club president, a retired auto mechanic, had never heard Fix it again Tony for Fiats, he says because he did not work on them. His name is Tony.

 

[special ed]

In regards to sims and flight training, when in Civil Air Patrol (mid 1950s) some cadets received sponsors for flight training to solo. The instructor, after the first cadet was given a simulated engine failure and the cadet put the nose down instinctively, asked how he knew to do that. The kid said he built and flew models. After that the instructor added models to ground school.

 

[DerAdlerIstGelandet]

That is certainly another perspective to consider.
What gave me the idea was there have been a couple guys in the news recently that having never flown before, only practicing in simulators were able to steel and successfuly fly in one case a rather large/ complex multi engine aircraft and fly them successfully( not that I plan on steeling aircraft or anything else for that matter) so it got me thinking that a good sim might prepare you for flying in the same way driving a car around in an empty parking lot kinda prepares you to drive on the street. That is you could learn the basic thought process to become automatic in a safe environment thereby, at least theoretically, avoiding actually doing those motions and procedures in response to sensory input for the first time in a less safe environment. Like one where it would be possible to end up as a heap of ruble at the end of the runway which would be embarrassing at the verry least.
To put it another way, its one thing to watch someone tell you when this happens do that, when that happens do this, no matter how many times there still is a brain wireing process that needs to take place when you actually do those things in response to sensory input.
Best example I can give for this kind of going through the motions in response to tactile and visual input is learning jiu jitsu( similar to wrestling but I would say more technical and less athleticism dependant) with a passive partner first(called a uke) before actually rolling with a fully resistant opponent. It really helps. It's one thing to watch the instructor say do this, do that and see him demonstrate. It's quite another to do the movements with an oponent even a passive one. Then when its time to actually roll your not trying to learn the muscle memory at the same time your getting clobbered by your oponent. The feel is of course different with a fully resistant opponent but you know at least the basic motions to go through instinctively already because you already have done them.
I thought the same learning process might work well with learning to fly but it's sounding like maybe not so much.
On a final note, aren't there better simulators than a desk top. Ones that you actually get into that would give you more realistic sensory input to learn with?
Thanks again.

Honestly, despite these recent events, sims are good for teaching procedure like for instrument flying, but nothing beats the real thing.

My instructor told me that for the private license they don't do much. He wanted me to fly the "couch" though, by visualizing in my head the steps for landing or performing stall maneuvers.

And yes there are full motion sims that are amazing. They are too expensive though for most flight schools offering private licenses. Also the FAA does not alloow simulator time to count for the private license.

 

[DerAdlerIstGelandet]

In regards to sims and flight training, when in Civil Air Patrol (mid 1950s) some cadets received sponsors for flight training to solo. The instructor, after the first cadet was given a simulated engine failure and the cadet put the nose down instinctively, asked how he knew to do that. The kid said he built and flew models. After that the instructor added models to ground school.

Most flight schools use models in ground instruction. It is great to visualize maneuvers before doing them in the plane.

I question the nose down maneuver though. In an engine out, you want to set the plane up for best glide angle so that you do not descend too quickly, and have time to fly the plane, access the situation and find a suitable landing area. You don't want to increase you airspeed and descend more quickly. You do not want to get "behind" the plane. Doing so is a recipe for disaster and will get you killed.

 

[XBe02Drvr]

My instructor did not want me going near sims during initial training.

I concur with your instructor. Wise attitude. But fact is, they will go play with their toy regardless of what you say. The give-away is their fixation on the instrument panel and their total obliviousness to external visual cues to the aircraft's flight condition, as well as zero traffic awareness.
Cheers,
Wes

 

[DerAdlerIstGelandet]

I concur with your instructor. Wise attitude. But fact is, they will go play with their toy regardless of what you say. The give-away is their fixation on the instrument panel and their total obliviousness to external visual cues to the aircraft's flight condition, as well as zero traffic awareness.
Cheers,
Wes

I was going to buy a sim until he told me that. Still have not bought one today...

 

[XBe02Drvr]

I question the nose down maneuver though. In an engine out, you want to set the plane up for best glide angle so that you do not descend too quickly, and have time to fly the plane, access the situation and find a suitable landing area.

I don't question it at all. Any pilot, student or pro, experiences an OMIGOD moment when a totally unexpected engine failure occurs, especially if accompanied by special effects such as smoke, vibration, and oil on the windshield and loud bangs and pieces coming out of the engine compartment. The airplane's energy margin above stall disappears rapidly, especially in a climb. A pushover is a good immediate action while the pilot's sphincter unclutches, and the student needs to know and instinctively go to the proper sight picture for best glide. My favorite time to pull the engine was in a Vy climb.
Cheers,
Wes

 

[DerAdlerIstGelandet]

I don't question it at all. Any pilot, student or pro, experiences an OMIGOD moment when a totally unexpected engine failure occurs, especially if accompanied by special effects such as smoke, vibration, and oil on the windshield and loud bangs and pieces coming out of the engine compartment. The airplane's energy margin above stall disappears rapidly, especially in a climb. A pushover is a good immediate action while the pilot's sphincter unclutches, and the student needs to know and instinctively go to the proper sight picture for best glide. My favorite time to pull the engine was in a Vy climb.
Cheers,
Wes

Yeah I guess I never really thought of it that way. We discussed the engine out maneuver in the classroom at length before hand, so going to best glide was like 2nd nature to me. Of course every situation is different, so I can see where you are coming from.

Engine fire though, yeah nose it over definately and try and get that fire out.

 

[XBe02Drvr]

Engine fire though, yeah nose it over definately and try and get that fire out.

Mixture idle cutoff, boost pump off, fuel selector off, steep slip to keep the flames out of your face. Pray like hell!
Cheers,
Wes

 

[DerAdlerIstGelandet]

Mixture idle cutoff, boost pump off, fuel selector off, steep slip to keep the flames out of your face. Pray like hell!
Cheers,
Wes

First time I found the steep slip a lil unnerving. Just seemed so weird. I kept thinking "when are you going to tell me the engine fire is out"? lol

 

[michael rauls]

Thanks guys. I really appreciate the input.
Sounds like a sim might be good for familiaization with procedures and basic movements but leave the mind open for a lot more sensory input that will need to be managed and appropriately reacted to.
Maybe a good learning tool as long as one is aware of its limitations.

 

[GrauGeist]

When I was in school, Driver's Ed was a full semester that started with bookwork, lectures and films, like "Red Asphalt".
We then had to apply for a Learner's Permit and then there was some basic behind the wheel time with both a manual transmission Chevrolet Chevette and an automatic transmission Ford Fairmont.
This was also coupled with a basic overview of an automobile's function and maintenance, like checking the oil, periodic inspection of the tires, how to change a tire and so on.

Another thing that was stressed, was "sweeping" the gauges and then checking the mirriors periodically, making sure there wasn't a vehicle in your blind-spot and how to look two cars ahead in traffic (the vehicle two cars ahead puts on the brakes, you do too) and how to maintain a two second buffer between you and the car ahead.

All common sense, but valuable skills for defensive driving which aren't taught these days. Matter of favt, California schools rarely offer Driver's Ed anymore and the Driving Schools have a student take an online course, a few hours behind the wheel and then they go to DMV for their license. They are whoefully underskilled when they hit the road, now.

And it shows.

 

[DerAdlerIstGelandet]

Thanks guys. I really appreciate the input.
Sounds like a sim might be good for familiaization with procedures and basic movements but leave the mind open for a lot more sensory input that will need to be managed and appropriately reacted to.
Maybe a good learning tool as long as one is aware of its limitations.

Honestly, it will not help much with the PPL procedures. It's with instruments were it comes into play.

As Xbe02Drvr (who was an instructor) pointed out those who use the PC sims will stare too much at the instruments when they should be outside flying the plane. A PPL pilot is under VFR rules, Instruments is under IFR. That is where a sim can help, and the reason the FAA allows a certain number of sim hours to count toward your instrument rating.

 

[michael rauls]

When I was in school, Driver's Ed was a full semester that started with bookwork, lectures and films, like "Red Asphalt".
We then had to apply for a Learner's Permit and then there was some basic behind the wheel time with both a manual transmission Chevrolet Chevette and an automatic transmission Ford Fairmont.
This was also coupled with a basic overview of an automobile's function and maintenance, like checking the oil, periodic inspection of the tires, how to change a tire and so on.

Another thing that was stressed, was "sweeping" the gauges and then checking the mirriors periodically, making sure there wasn't a vehicle in your blind-spot and how to look two cars ahead in traffic (the vehicle two cars ahead puts on the brakes, you do too) and how to maintain a two second buffer between you and the car ahead.

All common sense, but valuable skills for defensive driving which aren't taught these days. Matter of favt, California schools rarely offer Driver's Ed anymore and the Driving Schools have a student take an online course, a few hours behind the wheel and then they go to DMV for their license. They are whoefully underskilled when they hit the road, now.

And it shows.

Couldn't agree more with those last two sentences especially. Up In the cab of a large truck 11 hours a day you really get a birds eye view or the crazy @$%& people do.
I won't bore everyone with a list of examples but, holly mackerel, it's truly stunning sometimes.

 

[Tieleader]

Couldn't agree more with those last two sentences especially. Up In the cab of a large truck 11 hours a day you really get a birds eye view or the crazy @$%& people do.
I won't bore everyone with a list of examples but, holly mackerel, it's truly stunning sometimes.

Maybe not the whole list ,but what was the BEST one so far?

 

[michael rauls]

Maybe not the whole list ,but what was the BEST one so far?

Well I've seen more than a few people reading a newspaper or book while scootin along at 60 mph in heavy traffic. Twice in about 30 years I saw women go buy me putting on make up and then just drive off the road immediately in front of me.( one of these drove up a steep embankment and ended up teetering over the edge just like tou see in the movies only the embankment wasnt all that high. Maybe 10 or 15 feet). I stopped my truck and climbed up the embankment and helped her out of her car( had to bend down a small tree first as she had plowed through a row of freshly planted trees on the way up and now she was pinned inside by one against her door)
Then you have the obligatory couple doing what couples do normally at home or maybe hotel room but instead doing it in a compact car zooming down the road at 60 or 70 mph. Seen that a few times.
There you have a few of the more choice examples I can think of off the top of my head.

 

[special ed]

I mentioned in the 1950s I was a CAP cadet and I was also one of the cadets who was sponsored for flight lessons. One of the most valuable things I learned was to keep your head on a swivel constantly scanning which I still use today in parking lots. Mentally I'm in the landing pattern and the women in the shopping center are trying to kill me. One thing an instructor did way back then that made me lose confidence in him. was when he had me do engine outs over a closed strip. I knew you weren't supposed to let the wheels touch when Xs were painted on the concrete but he insisted on a roll out but the final incident was at the same session his last engine out was as we took off he chopped the throttle at about 100 feet and when I setup for straight ahead into the weeds He yelled No No took the stick did a near hammerhead 180 back to the strip. I didn't think I had enough hours yet for that so I waited for his partner after that.

 

[Tieleader]

Well I've seen more than a few people reading a newspaper or book while scootin along at 60 mph in heavy traffic. Twice in about 30 years I saw women go buy me putting on make up and then just drive off the road immediately in front of me.( one of these drove up a steep embankment and ended up teetering over the edge just like tou see in the movies only the embankment wasnt all that high. Maybe 10 or 15 feet). I stopped my truck and climbed up the embankment and helped her out of her car( had to bend down a small tree first as she had plowed through a row of freshly planted trees on the way up and now she was pinned inside by one against her door)
Then you have the obligatory couple doing what couples do normally at home or maybe hotel room but instead doing it in a compact car zooming down the road at 60 or 70 mph. Seen that a few times.
There you have a few of the more choice examples I can think of off the top of my head.

Dang! The more I think about it the more I'm going to become a pedestrian. No wait, slower target...

 

[fubar57]

Probably better to stay in the house. I've seen a few videos where pedestrians were hit by vehicles they never saw coming