The thread formally known as the P-39 vs. ze Germans thread.

[Shortround6]

I took one of my younger sisters into a parking lot after she had 5 of her allotted 6 hours of road time in high school drivers ed. She was driving at 20-25mph in a 45mph zone that was a truck route and came to a complete stop before making the right hand turn into the parking lot. She was driving like she was scared of the car and what it might do if she gave it any but the most gentle of inputs. we spent about a 1/2 an hour just hitting the brake pedal at 20mph or under, hitting the gas for a few seconds and giving the wheel a god tug one way or the other in addition to so just general driving around.
Parking lots have their places for certain things and some people learn faster than others.
In a parking lot I learned that my TR-250 in snow (at least with me driving) once it got past about 20-30 degree skid would just keep fishtailing until it swapped ends. You could catch it while going backwards and hardly leave an area wider than a lane of traffic. I had other cars you could hang out to 45 degrees or better and still get back without large fishtails.
Not stuff you want to learn on city streets.

I am not sure that learning to drive from a Math or History teacher is the best method either
Especially one who's main goal is to stay alive while teaching.

 

[CORSNING]

Ok, I looked closer at the heading. I have been blamed for this
whole thread.
OK then, someone mentioned highway speeds in a parking lot,
I can do that.

Yep, that's my baby.

 

[DerAdlerIstGelandet]

I took one of my younger sisters into a parking lot after she had 5 of her allotted 6 hours of road time in high school drivers ed. She was driving at 20-25mph in a 45mph zone that was a truck route and came to a complete stop before making the right hand turn into the parking lot. She was driving like she was scared of the car and what it might do if she gave it any but the most gentle of inputs. we spent about a 1/2 an hour just hitting the brake pedal at 20mph or under, hitting the gas for a few seconds and giving the wheel a god tug one way or the other in addition to so just general driving around.
Parking lots have their places for certain things and some people learn faster than others.
In a parking lot I learned that my TR-250 in snow (at least with me driving) once it got past about 20-30 degree skid would just keep fishtailing until it swapped ends. You could catch it while going backwards and hardly leave an area wider than a lane of traffic. I had other cars you could hang out to 45 degrees or better and still get back without large fishtails.
Not stuff you want to learn on city streets.

I am not sure that learning to drive from a Math or History teacher is the best method either
Especially one who's main goal is to stay alive while teaching.

Drivers Ed in school is not a driving school. In fact it is no different than parents teaching their kids.

I am talking about requiring a real mandatory driving school, with certified teachers. How its done in other parts of the world. You start out with a classroom, 2 nights a week covering the laws, theory of driving, first aid/cpr certification. This concludes with a written exam. Then follows the practical instruction. This includes about 20 hours minimum of driving with a certified and trained driving instructor that includes city driving, parking techniques, good driving practices (You know using those pesky turn signals, and how to merge in lanes and use the zipper method [that other thing Americans hate to know how to use]), night driving, highway/interstate driving and inclement weather driving. This concludes with a practical exam that covers everything learned. The student driver is prepared for driving on the roads, unlike most kids these days.

I wrote a paper on this a while back. The United States has one of the worst accident rates and vehicular death rates in the western industrialized world. You all have seen how terrible drivers are getting. Something has to give...

 

[Shortround6]

I agree with you, the standard of instruction in this country is terrible. As a firefighter for 33 years I saw a number of accidents.
I have forgotten most of the fender benders were we just went back to station and left it to the cops. The ones that tend to stick are the ones where we pried the car apart for either rescue or recovery. Parental stupidity only stands out in few cases. Like buying 16-17 year olds Nissan 350 Z or some such. Somewhat predictable results.
I know what you mean about merging too, It seems like some of the drivers think there is someone watching from above that will give them bonus points for the most cars passed while they are in the entrance ramp/merge lane

Some of the driver's ed cars I drove in high school were lucky to give the instructor a brake pedal let alone anything else. Trying to learn to drive with 6 hours on the road total with 2-3 different cars (different makes/brands) in the Driver's ED fleet plus driving parents cars didn't help.
Funny story (to me anyway) was driving down to Driver's ED with my father (me driving ) in our 6 year old Volkswagen beetle and then climbing into a Buick with power everything, took some quick adjusting. Nearly put the instructor through the windshield at the first stop sign. At the next lesson he braced both arms against the dash and had me test the brakes before we had gone 100ft.

 

[Ivan1GFP]

I2 Litres with air con on full kills the acceleration above 70 mph, but you've still got plenty of it at lower speeds. You can jump gears too while accelerating.

Interesting.... If arranged properly, you can have a manifold pressure switch that cuts the compressor at WOT. The goofy thing is that at about 75 to 80 MPH, the AC compressor cuts on my Mustang and there is still plenty of power at those speeds. My old 1.6 Liter didn't have that but even without anything going on, it was wasn't very quick with only about 75 HP. It did teach how to anticipate things happening.

Why would you want to learn highway speeds in a no-threat environment?

I had to go through a strict classroom and practical course that took several months and included a specific number of hours in day driving, night driving, city driving, rural driving, rain driving, winter driving, autobahn driving, and various parking techniques.

The driving test lasted over an hour, and involved a hell of a lot more than driving around the block like they do here.

Highway speeds because it would teach gear handling for downshifting and passing and also for the hills if your little tuk-tuk doesn't have enough power to keep going up a hill as one of my rentals did not. (Fiat Cinquecento (sp?) on a British Motorway)

Your description of a proper driving course sounds an awful lot like the course my Son just went through. It is taught at the school, but only the classroom part is really part of regular High School Physical Education (!). The rest is something that we sign up for separately. He passed his driving test, but still must wait several months and accumulate more hours and especially night driving hours in order to get his license. The Rain Driving isn't something that is part of the course nor is Winter driving. Snow is really unpredictable around here and I believe technique really depends on the vehicle you have.

I believe the rather poor driving we have around here is mostly due to cell phone and texting and general distracted driving. That in combination with folks that are learning as adults because they are immigrants doesn't make for a great combination. Most of the really stupid "driving" that I have seen is appears to be because the driver is distracted by cell phone, kids in the back, argument with the spouse, whatever. That is a behaviour rather than education thing.

- Ivan.

 

[DerAdlerIstGelandet]

Interesting.... If arranged properly, you can have a manifold pressure switch that cuts the compressor at WOT. The goofy thing is that at about 75 to 80 MPH, the AC compressor cuts on my Mustang and there is still plenty of power at those speeds. My old 1.6 Liter didn't have that but even without anything going on, it was wasn't very quick with only about 75 HP. It did teach how to anticipate things happening.



Highway speeds because it would teach gear handling for downshifting and passing and also for the hills if your little tuk-tuk doesn't have enough power to keep going up a hill as one of my rentals did not. (Fiat Cinquecento (sp?) on a British Motorway)

Your description of a proper driving course sounds an awful lot like the course my Son just went through. It is taught at the school, but only the classroom part is really part of regular High School Physical Education (!). The rest is something that we sign up for separately. He passed his driving test, but still must wait several months and accumulate more hours and especially night driving hours in order to get his license. The Rain Driving isn't something that is part of the course nor is Winter driving. Snow is really unpredictable around here and I believe technique really depends on the vehicle you have.

I believe the rather poor driving we have around here is mostly due to cell phone and texting and general distracted driving. That in combination with folks that are learning as adults because they are immigrants doesn't make for a great combination. Most of the really stupid "driving" that I have seen is appears to be because the driver is distracted by cell phone, kids in the back, argument with the spouse, whatever. That is a behaviour rather than education thing.

- Ivan.

The driving course I have described is much more stringent and structured than drivers education in school. It actually prepares you for driving.

Cell phones certainly play a role, but even bigger of a role is not being taught and prepared in a structured setting that actually prepares you to handle a vehicle on the roads with other vehicles on the road as well.

There is a lack of basic skills, like when turning what direction should you use a narrow or wide turn. A systematic step by step process for parallel parking, how to actually merge lanes, how to properly use the zipper method, etc...

 

[michael rauls]

The driving course I have described is much more stringent and structured than drivers education in school. It actually prepares you for driving.

Cell phones certainly play a role, but even bigger of a role is not being taught and prepared in a structured setting that actually prepares you to handle a vehicle on the roads with other vehicles on the road as well.

There is a lack of basic skills, like when turning what direction should you use a narrow or wide turn. A systematic step by step process for parallel parking, how to actually merge lanes, how to properly use the zipper method, etc...

As someone who spends 11 or 12 hours a day 5 days a week on the road in the cab of a large truck where I can see over traffic far ahead I can attest to the lack of basic driving skills possessed by a disturbingly large percentage of drivers.
At least here in southern California
You wouldn't believe the crazy stuff I see and not just once in a while.
Hey this may be a little off topic but does anyone know where I can find a thread on the p39 vs German fighters?

 

[at6]

We will probably change the post counts you need for each ranks, so you'll probably have a lower rank again next week.

Drivers Ed in school is not a driving school. In fact it is no different than parents teaching their kids.

I am talking about requiring a real mandatory driving school, with certified teachers. How its done in other parts of the world. You start out with a classroom, 2 nights a week covering the laws, theory of driving, first aid/cpr certification. This concludes with a written exam. Then follows the practical instruction. This includes about 20 hours minimum of driving with a certified and trained driving instructor that includes city driving, parking techniques, good driving practices (You know using those pesky turn signals, and how to merge in lanes and use the zipper method [that other thing Americans hate to know how to use]), night driving, highway/interstate driving and inclement weather driving. This concludes with a practical exam that covers everything learned. The student driver is prepared for driving on the roads, unlike most kids these days.

I wrote a paper on this a while back. The United States has one of the worst accident rates and vehicular death rates in the western industrialized world. You all have seen how terrible drivers are getting. Something has to give...

Hence the reason for driver less cars being promoted here.

 

[Shortround6]

I had a weird experience near the end of my firefighter career. I had in my younger days a licence for tractor trailer, but never really used it. It allowed me to drive the fire trucks without any special training or course. However in the years that followed they tightened up on the requirements for that commercial licence and I didn't bother to keep it current. The DMV also introduced some new classifications/categories like the "Q" endorsement for driving fire apparatus. At any rate at some point the when renewing my licence the DMV took away the commercial/tractor trailer licence but didn't substitute teh "Q " and with just a few years left to my career I would up having to through a fire truck driving course and test with a bunch of young (and not so young) volunteer firefighters. A few days of class room and pre-trip inspections (disconnect between DMV and fire depts, we "pre-trip" at the beginning of the shift, you don't run around checking lug nuts when the alarm goes off) and then the day of the driving test with the DMV inspector. The driving "test" consisted pre-trip checking the truck , backing the truck up about 100ft while staying in one traffic lane and stopping with rear bumper within 12 inches of of an imaginary line(but not over) between two traffic cones. Parallel parking into a spot marked out by traffic cones and doing a left hand 90 degree turn into an imaginary loading dock and stopping at the already mentioned 12in space.
None of this anything to do with how fire trucks are actually operated. For several years before this our dept had a policy that if you were backing up FOR ANY REASON, you had at least one spotter guiding you visible in your rear view mirror/s. Getting caught backing up without a spotter, even to reposition it 5 ft for washing was subject to disciplinary action.
After the parking test came the "over the road." I don't know if the inspector had been tipped off about me or not. By the time we made it past the 2nd stop sign he told me to turn around at the next and go back, I had passed as far as he was concerned.

In 33 years we actually only practiced "emergency braking" one day. Lay out a few cones and piece of old hose and get the truck up to about 20mph and slam on the brakes when you pass a set of cones and try not to run over the hose (about to be thrown out anyway). On the other hand we had a few trucks that would not have stood up to much abuse in a long training session. I once "lost" the brakes on a 100ft aerial coming back form a false alarm. Hot summer day (almost 100 degrees) and back to back runs, coming back from the 2nd and (and driving normal for 2-3 miles through 25-35mph zones) the brakes just faded out going down hill on the main east=west street through the center of town when the light turned red at the bottom. the truck stopped about one block later. Luck was with us and nobody was in front of us.
Drum brakes are crap

 

[Tieleader]

Hey this may be a little off topic but does anyone know where I can find a thread on the p39 vs German fighters?

I was taught that it started here P-39 vs German fighters in school but the flat earthers /lunar landing hoaxers proved it was all a NASA cover up!
Seriously, totally agree about the lack of training to today's drivers. Back when I learned to drive (a century ago) parking lots were to best spot to get over that initial gun-shy feeling of moving a big chunk of metal around without fear of whacking something (at least too hard). Then moving onto the road and the harder points. At least you didn't get dropped off on the deep the first time! I'm terrified that one of the dozen times I take my Trans Am out to a show, I'm going to get T-boned by a 17 year old who's steering with his knee and texting his autobiography to his girlfriend (thanks to Chris Titus!). PUT DOWN THE DAMNED CELL PHONES PEOPLE! Sorry, sore point with me...

 

[Tieleader]

Hence the reason for driver less cars being promoted here.

Like the one that did a "hit and run" a little back on the test course Sorry I'll wait wait for the 2.0 version. Wait, maybe not at all ...

 

[Tieleader]

Drum brakes are crap

Agreed! Glad no one got hurt!

 

[DerAdlerIstGelandet]

Back to the topic of young drivers using cell phones. That is actually another prime example of parents teaching their kids their bad habits.

Every day, I see some mother or father driving with a phone stuck to their ear with a kid in the back seat. Kids learn from their parents.

 

[fubar57]

Thppft!!!...brake tests....brakes just slow production down. 4 brake tests on a Cat 793; Park Brake: depress shifter release button, depress upshift button, put shifter into drive and bring RPM up to 1400, Manual Brake retarder(main braking system): pull handle all the way down, same RPM, Service Brake pedal(only to be used below 2mph): Pedal all the way to the floor, same RPM, Emergency(Oh sh!t) pedal(only to be used when all else fails): Pedal all the way to the floor, same RPM. If the truck moves at all during these tests the truck is down. I've had to use the E brake twice on Komatsu electrics

 

[DerAdlerIstGelandet]

I was taught that it started here P-39 vs German fighters in school but the flat earthers /lunar landing hoaxers proved it was all a NASA cover up!
Seriously, totally agree about the lack of training to today's drivers. Back when I learned to drive (a century ago) parking lots were to best spot to get over that initial gun-shy feeling of moving a big chunk of metal around without fear of whacking something (at least too hard). Then moving onto the road and the harder points. At least you didn't get dropped off on the deep the first time! I'm terrified that one of the dozen times I take my Trans Am out to a show, I'm going to get T-boned by a 17 year old who's steering with his knee and texting his autobiography to his girlfriend (thanks to Chris Titus!). PUT DOWN THE DAMNED CELL PHONES PEOPLE! Sorry, sore point with me...

I believe in starting off on the roads. With a structured real certified school it is possible. Like I said, my first lesson had only the first 10 minutes in a parking lot, then it was out onto the road.

 

[Tieleader]

I believe in starting off on the roads. With a structured real certified school it is possible. Like I said, my first lesson had only the first 10 minutes in a parking lot, then it was out onto the road.

I'm not saying spend all day there, just long enough to get over that "OMG I'm going to hit somebody and kill them" feeling! or the "OMG I'm going to crash and explode!" feeling.. Long enough to realize that you now have responsibility to those around you. THEN throw them off into the deep end. I never had the proper private driving school experience and am proud to say I have never caused an accident. Been on the receiving end, sure. More time than I'd like. In hindsight, yes a more defined learning method would have been appreciated early on. Made up for the lack of learning by experience.

 

[michael rauls]

I'm not saying spend all day there, just long enough to get over that "OMG I'm going to hit somebody and kill them" feeling! or the "OMG I'm going to crash and explode!" feeling.. Long enough to realize that you now have responsibility to those around you. THEN throw them off into the deep end. I never had the proper private driving school experience and am proud to say I have never caused an accident. Been on the receiving end, sure. More time than I'd like. In hindsight, yes a more defined learning method would have been appreciated early on. Made up for the lack of learning by experience.

Taking the getting over the" OMG I'm going to crash and explode" feeling by starting in an empty parking lot in a slightly different direction. Learning to fly is something I've always wanted to do but never had the time or money. I've got the money now( thanks to a decades of savings and investment). Still don't have the time yet but retirement is about 12 short years away. Then, hopefully I will have both the time and money.
Anyway, I'm wondering if anyone here can tell me if you can learn the basics of how to fly on a good simulator.
I dont mean to be a competent pilot on a simulator but just so that when you take your first flight the muscle memory is already there so at least to some degree it's familiar and you know what to do instinctively instead of trying to think it through your first time out.
Thanks in advance for any responses.

 

[DerAdlerIstGelandet]

And thats the thing. It probably worked great back then. Less technology in the cars. Less distraction from things like phones. Slower speeds. Less cars on the road.

Now a days, the less structured non formal training is not cutting it.

 

[DerAdlerIstGelandet]

Taking the getting over the" OMG I'm going to crash and explode" feeling by starting in an empty parking lot in a slightly different direction. Learning to fly is something I've always wanted to do but never had the time or money. I've got the money now( thanks to a decades of savings and investment). Still don't have the time yet but retirement is about 12 short years away. Then, hopefully I will have both the time and money.
Anyway, I'm wondering if anyone here can tell me if you can learn the basics of how to fly on a good simulator.
I dont mean to be a competent pilot on a simulator but just so that when you take your first flight the muscle memory is already there so at least to some degree it's familiar and you know what to do instinctively instead of trying to think it through your first time out.
Thanks in advance for any responses.

Learning to fly is certainly different. Usually you have ground school first.

I went through several weeks of ground school before scheduling my first flight when I learned to fly. On that flight though, my instructer through me in the deep end. I had the controls from the beginning. Took the plane off myself. Of course the first flight was just basic familiarization. Left and right turns, descents and climbs. He had me fly it to the runway, but he landed it.

Of course this was in a very docile forgiving Piper Cherokee.

 

[fubar57]

View: https://youtu.be/FXEoe8_CcbM
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