The thread formally known as the P-39 vs. ze Germans thread.

[Glider]

Back to the topic of young drivers using cell phones. That is actually another prime example of parents teaching their kids their bad habits.

Every day, I see some mother or father driving with a phone stuck to their ear with a kid in the back seat. Kids learn from their parents.

Here in the UK it's an offence to use a cell phone which is in your hand, you are only allowed to use hands free phones. It helps a little but the biggest problem is that when you are talking on a cell phone, you are not concentrating. Age, experience, whatever makes no difference, you will be booked for it.

 

[michael rauls]

Learning to fly is certainly different. Usually you have ground school first.

I went through several weeks of ground school before scheduling my first flight when I learned to fly. On that flight though, my instructer through me in the deep end. I had the controls from the beginning. Took the plane off myself. Of course the first flight was just basic familiarization. Left and right turns, descents and climbs. He had me fly it to the runway, but he landed it.

Of course this was in a very docile forgiving Piper Cherokee.

Thanks for the reply. I guess what I meant was that if one could get to the place on a simulator that you would have the muscle memory of what to do instinctively the first time out it would make things alot easier and perhaps safer.
I realize the feel of things would of course be much different due to the lack of the effects of inertia, wind speed changes, etc in a simulator.

 

[Ivan1GFP]

The driving course I have described is much more stringent and structured than drivers education in school. It actually prepares you for driving.
.....
There is a lack of basic skills, like when turning what direction should you use a narrow or wide turn. A systematic step by step process for parallel parking, how to actually merge lanes, how to properly use the zipper method, etc...

Hello DerAdlerIstGelandet,
I am not trying to get into an argument about the quality of your driver training versus what the kids are getting around here.
I am just noting that most of the points you are raising have been addressed from what I can see. The quality is subject to debate because I believe there is really no substitute for experience and knowing where to spot problems before they happen. The program has changed A LOT since I went through it a few decades ago. It is a lot more rigorous and the my Son's instructor was the fellow who signed off on his driving test, so I presume he has some kind of certification from the local government.

I am not sure what you mean by narrow or wide turn. Fastest line through a corner? Kind of depends on the car.
Regarding parallel parking, some people get it and some people don't. I watch a lady who could not figure out how to move her car over a couple feet when she didn't line up properly in a parking space. Doesn't really mean she's dangerous on the road. It just means she isn't all that skilled.

We all have our opinions, but although I agree that being able to operate a car with a manual transmission is a useful skill and I enjoy manual shift cars, in the daily commute through rush hour traffic an automatic is a lot less fatiguing. It gets quite annoying when traffic is moving at about 2-3 MPH and you realise that the slowest you can go with the car in gear is about 7 MPH.

- Ivan.

 

[fubar57]

How do the RCMP in Chilliwack , B.C catch cell phone users?....posing as line-men.

​

 

[Kevin J]

Here in the UK it's an offence to use a cell phone which is in your hand, you are only allowed to use hands free phones. It helps a little but the biggest problem is that when you are talking on a cell phone, you are not concentrating. Age, experience, whatever makes no difference, you will be booked for it.

Unless you're a taxi driver using a PDA which looks remarkably like a mobile phone with an app and satnav, in which case it is okay to break these laws.

 

[DerAdlerIstGelandet]

Here in the UK it's an offence to use a cell phone which is in your hand, you are only allowed to use hands free phones. It helps a little but the biggest problem is that when you are talking on a cell phone, you are not concentrating. Age, experience, whatever makes no difference, you will be booked for it.

It is here too. It is just not enforced. A close friend of mine is a cop. Drives around posting on facebook while driving.

 

[Kevin J]

Ok, I looked closer at the heading. I have been blamed for this
whole thread.
OK then, someone mentioned highway speeds in a parking lot,
I can do that.

View attachment 512956

Yep, that's my baby.

I'm sure the Cobra really was a car as it had car doors and flew very low, less than 10000 feet, to be effective. Jeez, you wouldn't even get over the Alps flying like that, you'd be better off driving one of those Peugeot or Mercedes diesels. The Cobra was okay for the Russians because there were no mountains between the Urals and the North Sea, although luckily they never got that far because we suckered them into taking Berlin while we advanced into East Germany and nabbed the Nazi's best scientists. Except the ones that escaped to Antarctica in flying saucers.

 

[Glider]

It is here too. It is just not enforced. A close friend of mine is a cop. Drives around posting on facebook while driving.

I work for a police force and they go to considerable lengths to try and enforce it. They have hired HGV cabs so they can check on HGV drivers, buses so they can look down on people in cars and even set up an ANPR set in an agricultural tractor as they are high up and can see a considerable distance ahead.
Some of the officers jokingly asked if they could put the stripes, lights and siren on the HGV cab, as that would have been a real sight hammering down the motorway, but it was declined.

Some of the things they have found beggar belief. One HGV driver was using a small gas stove on the passenger seat to cook his dinner, while he was driving.

 

[DerAdlerIstGelandet]

Hello DerAdlerIstGelandet,
I am not trying to get into an argument about the quality of your driver training versus what the kids are getting around here.
I am just noting that most of the points you are raising have been addressed from what I can see. The quality is subject to debate because I believe there is really no substitute for experience and knowing where to spot problems before they happen. The program has changed A LOT since I went through it a few decades ago. It is a lot more rigorous and the my Son's instructor was the fellow who signed off on his driving test, so I presume he has some kind of certification from the local government.

I am not sure what you mean by narrow or wide turn. Fastest line through a corner? Kind of depends on the car.
Regarding parallel parking, some people get it and some people don't. I watch a lady who could not figure out how to move her car over a couple feet when she didn't line up properly in a parking space. Doesn't really mean she's dangerous on the road. It just means she isn't all that skilled.

We all have our opinions, but although I agree that being able to operate a car with a manual transmission is a useful skill and I enjoy manual shift cars, in the daily commute through rush hour traffic an automatic is a lot less fatiguing. It gets quite annoying when traffic is moving at about 2-3 MPH and you realise that the slowest you can go with the car in gear is about 7 MPH.

- Ivan.

I disagree. That is ok. This is not an argument.

Drivers Ed may be more stringent now, but is nothing like a real structured regulated school. After 6 hours, you are back to driving with your parents who themselves went through drivers education in school.

By narrow or wide turn, I mean when to use a wide or narrow turn. How many times have you sat at red light at an intersection, and almost had some turning onto your street from the right almost clip your car because they took the turn to narrow? Happens to me several times a day because people are not taught the basics here.

Parallel parking? I disagree with you. There is a systematic step by step process using your rear window that is taught in driving schools in Germany for instance. It is actually a technique that spelled out. Makes it so easy you get it on the 1st try.

Same can be said for the zipper method. Every American I know here, calls people who actually use it correctly an asshole trying to get ahead of the slow traffic. In reality merging at the last possible point (known as the zipper method) is the most efficient method. People are taught here that it is not, that you merge as soon as you see traffic stopped ahead. In reality you are slowing it down even more, and this actually causes a higher number of accidents. There has actually been a lot of research done on this.

 

[XBe02Drvr]

I am not sure that learning to drive from a Math or History teacher is the best method either
Especially one who's main goal is to stay alive while teaching.

In my state (VT), a Driver Ed teacher has to go through a rigorous training course and then is certified to teach Driver Ed ONLY. They can hold other certifications, but can't exercise them concurrently. If they're hired to teach D.E. that's all they can do. Students don't get near a car until they've had half a semester of classroom work, and then they're still in class for the rest of the semester. Only the sharpest get by with only six hours of driving; the rest get more.
Needless to say, D.E. is a bottleneck in the education system, and not all students can be accommodated. Since DMV requires evidence of formal training from license applicants, there's a lively market for driving academies, and well-to-do students are likely to lose out in the competition for public school D.E.
Cheers,
Wes

 

[Shortround6]

I am glad to hear that things are getting stricter. The old ways weren't very good.

 

[XBe02Drvr]

Anyway, I'm wondering if anyone here can tell me if you can learn the basics of how to fly on a good simulator.
I dont mean to be a competent pilot on a simulator but just so that when you take your first flight the muscle memory is already there so at least to some degree it's familiar and you know what to do instinctively instead of trying to think it through your first time out.

Well, a computer flight sim can give you a perceptual and procedural memory, but not a valid muscle memory. The control feel and response rates as well as the visual and kinesthetic impacts are so different that subliminal responses acquired on the sim aren't going to translate exactly to the plane.
Now if you can learn to absorb the behaviors and responses of the sim conceptually in terms of what situation requires what action without focusing on feel and habitual response, the sim will serve you well. Keep your brain in the loop and your reflexes out and you'll do fine. When you first get in the plane expecting rapid initial progress, you'll be disappointed, but once you get over the initial hump you'll take on new steps in the process faster than most. Don't expect it to make a massive dollar reduction in the overall cost of flight training. I've had students who came self-taught on desktop sims and were convinced all they needed from me was a sign-off so they could go fly solo and teach themselves the rest. They were highly resistant to any input from me, and totally ignorant of what a danger they were to everyone around. I had to find creative ways to safely let them scare the crap out of themselves to get their attention. A touch of humility can be a great learning aid. It's you that's footing the bill.
Good luck and have fun!
Cheers,
Wes

 

[special ed]

I had a 52 Fiat for a while. They were never imported to the US so this one must have been brought in by an officer, although why I don't know. It had four on the column with reverse back and down. First was a granny gear so normal use was 2nd for 1st. For any unfamiliar, Its the size of a m\Morris major. Those still confused, it is the size of modern mid sized cars. Those who rode with me were amazed at the speedometer which topped out at 140. I usually let them be amazed for a while before I explained about kilometers and that it was 86mph. The carb had a summer and winter setting which meant nothing in south Louisiana. It went out of service quite often and my father liked to tinker with it and seemed fascinatedwithit.

 

[Shortround6]

FIAT is an acronym for "Fix It Again Tony"

 

[fubar57]

 

[michael rauls]

Well, a computer flight sim can give you a perceptual and procedural memory, but not a valid muscle memory. The control feel and response rates as well as the visual and kinesthetic impacts are so different that subliminal responses acquired on the sim aren't going to translate exactly to the plane.
Now if you can learn to absorb the behaviors and responses of the sim conceptually in terms of what situation requires what action without focusing on feel and habitual response, the sim will serve you well. Keep your brain in the loop and your reflexes out and you'll do fine. When you first get in the plane expecting rapid initial progress, you'll be disappointed, but once you get over the initial hump you'll take on new steps in the process faster than most. Don't expect it to make a massive dollar reduction in the overall cost of flight training. I've had students who came self-taught on desktop sims and were convinced all they needed from me was a sign-off so they could go fly solo and teach themselves the rest. They were highly resistant to any input from me, and totally ignorant of what a danger they were to everyone around. I had to find creative ways to safely let them scare the crap out of themselves to get their attention. A touch of humility can be a great learning aid. It's you that's footing the bill.
Good luck and have fun!
Cheers,
Wes

Thank you for your insight. Gives me a better idea what to and what not to expect.

 

[Tieleader]

View: https://youtu.be/FXEoe8_CcbM
​

Saw THAT coming!

 

[XBe02Drvr]

Thank you for your insight. Gives me a better idea what to and what not to expect.

A lot depends on the chemistry between you and your insructor(s). Not everybody's teaching style meshes well with everybody's learning style. Don't waste money on an explosive concoction that could blow up the chemistry lab. Most important, have fun!:
Cheers,
Wes

 

[DerAdlerIstGelandet]

Well, a computer flight sim can give you a perceptual and procedural memory, but not a valid muscle memory. The control feel and response rates as well as the visual and kinesthetic impacts are so different that subliminal responses acquired on the sim aren't going to translate exactly to the plane.
Now if you can learn to absorb the behaviors and responses of the sim conceptually in terms of what situation requires what action without focusing on feel and habitual response, the sim will serve you well. Keep your brain in the loop and your reflexes out and you'll do fine. When you first get in the plane expecting rapid initial progress, you'll be disappointed, but once you get over the initial hump you'll take on new steps in the process faster than most. Don't expect it to make a massive dollar reduction in the overall cost of flight training. I've had students who came self-taught on desktop sims and were convinced all they needed from me was a sign-off so they could go fly solo and teach themselves the rest. They were highly resistant to any input from me, and totally ignorant of what a danger they were to everyone around. I had to find creative ways to safely let them scare the crap out of themselves to get their attention. A touch of humility can be a great learning aid. It's you that's footing the bill.
Good luck and have fun!
Cheers,
Wes

My instructor did not want me going near sims during initial training.

 

[michael rauls]

A lot depends on the chemistry between you and your insructor(s). Not everybody's teaching style meshes well with everybody's learning style. Don't waste money on an explosive concoction that could blow up the chemistry lab. Most important, have fun!:
Cheers,
Wes

Certainly sounds like good advice. Thank you!