The TSR2: The Greatest Plane Never Built.

[Matt308]

Unfortunately, this is the age of the US and other New Entrant countries - the UK will increasingly have to take a back-seat and accept our diminished position in the world

Well surely that attitude won't help. While ability to realistically assess current situations is helpful, resolving yourself to second class is not in the British spirit of the past. Stiff upper lip and all that. The UK holds a pretty powerful political and military position in the world. Don't deny your country its dues. And the US views the UK as its most staunchest allie.

 

[Waynos]

The greatest enemy the UK aircraft industry ever faced was not the USA, nor even the Luftwaffe. It was the British Government.

 

[CharlesBronson]

Thunderbirds GO!!

Agreed, seems extracted from a comic book.

This was not designed for OR339, which called for a bomber. This was designed to F.155T, an interceptor required to reach mach 2.5 and fly at 70,000ft. The favoured design for this was the Fairey Delta III.shown here.

After reading again I have to say...you are correct, that is a fighter with firestreak missiles. This is the proper squematics:

 

[Cromwell]

Well surely that attitude won't help. While ability to realistically assess current situations is helpful, resolving yourself to second class is not in the British spirit of the past. Stiff upper lip and all that. The UK holds a pretty powerful political and military position in the world. Don't deny your country its dues. And the US views the UK as its most staunchest allie.

You know what, you might just have a point - in any case thanks for the boost.

Why We Fight :-

I went to see where my mother was born in Hastings Old Town today (on the south coast) in 1924 - very beautiful weather I must say, lots of sun and sea etc.

She was born in a building that was part of an old inn - built back in 1523 - which is very old IMHO.

Guess what ? it was obliterated by a German Hit Run Raid in 1943

Fortunately my mother's family had been evacuated before, but now there is a garden memorial to commemorate the great loss of life.

It was just one bomb but it exploded when the Inn / Hotel was full of Civilians and Service Personnel on leave etc etc.

Very Sad

 

[johnbr]

 

[johnbr]

Specification
Powerplant
Two 30,610 lbst Bristol Siddeley Olympus 320
Span
37 ft 0 in
Maximum Weight
80,000 lb (96,000 lb overload)
Range
1,150 miles (hi-hi) with 2,000 lb bomb load; 800 miles (lo-lo)
Maximum Speed
1,485 mph (Mach 2.35) at 36,000 ft; 850 mph (Mach 1.1) at low level.
Number built
2 complete prototypes 1 flown (XR219), several other airframes in build at time of cancellation
Survivors
XR220
RAF Museum, Cosford, UK
www.rafmuseum.org.uk
XR222 Imperial War Museum, Duxford, Cambs, UK
www.iwm.org.uk
The end of the line as a fuselage XR226 is scrapped at Weybridge

 

[HealzDevo]

Now which German Luftwaffe 1946 paper project does this plane remind me of? I'm sure I have seen something similar before there....

 

[HealzDevo]

Now where have I seen a German paper project similar in design? Accidential double post sorry.

 

[Graeme]

Dunno about any Luft '46 designs being similar - but I have wondered if the early Vigilante had any influence on the TSR-2 design?

 

[johnbr]

 

[DerAdlerIstGelandet]

You sure do have a way with words Smokey...

I suspect this one will get interesting.

 

[rochie]

no !

not worth it

 

[DerAdlerIstGelandet]

I just wish we could hurry up and get the smokey/tagas formalities out of the way.

 

[rochie]

I just wish we could hurry up and get the smokey/tagas formalities out of the way.

i'm smokey stover.

and so is my wife ....!

 

[FLYBOYJ]

Yep, instead the yanks sabotaged us as usual and europe had to put up with the F111 widowmaker.....lol

Kind of hard to sabotage something that was doomed to begin with!

 

[vikingBerserker]

A real stunner to look at, I think that and the B-70 were the most beautiful aircraft ever made.

 

[buffnut453]

Kind of hard to sabotage something that was doomed to begin with!

Intrigued to know how it was doomed to begin with. Happy to learn but, from all I've read, it had pretty much overcome the primary issues at the time of cancellation, and said cancellation was an entirely political move.

 

[nuuumannn]

There's no evidence the US had anything to do with the TSR.2's cancellation. It was entirely internal politics. Yes, the US wanted to push their own designs, but why not? They were in competition with the British industry, but also, on the other side of the coin, the US was keen on European nations being able to provide their own defence capabilities to counter the Soviet threat on mainland Europe.

A few facts. TSR.2 was built to GOR.343, not GOR.339. The latter was for the Canberra replacement spec, which produced two final designs, from English Electric (EE) and Supermarine (the last drawing board machine by the Supermarine team). The best aspects of these two designs were merged into what was eventually to become the TSR.2, but a fly in the ointment in the form of an agreement with Short Brothers by EE meant that that firm had to be written out of the equation, so GOR.343 was written to facilitate this and the winners of OR.339 were built as the TSR.2 under OR.343.

The actual reason behind the TSR.2's cancellation was its was just too expensive, but again, this wasn't necessarily the fault of the jet or the companies tasked with its design and construction. It was an entirely new concept in which the first prototype became the first pre-production aircraft; it's design was frozen before construction began. This was a new concept and it hampered the final design as the RAF Air Staff and the committee formed by the Ministry of Supply kept changing the goal posts as to what roles the TSR.2 was to actually carry out. The RAF saw it as a possible replacement for the V-bombers, too. OR.343 was re-written no less than four times to accommodate changes to the basic requirement that had moved beyond a simple Canberra replacement. No wonder it became too expensive. The negative press and lack of government (specifically MoD - the naval heads wanted the money after they had found out their big carrier projects were going to be scrapped) support also weighed on the project as a whole.

This lack of clarity with regards to the jet's ultimate role was directly as a result of Duncan Sandys' 1957 Defence White Paper, which cancelled a host of future weapon systems and concetrated on the development of rockets and missiles (during WW2 Sandys had been chair of a committee to investigate German V-1 and V-2 technology, where his love of rockets grew from). From this the Blue Streak Medium Range Ballistic Missile came about, but was cancelled in 1960 for the same reason as the TSR.2, cost, although rockets were supplied to the European Launcher Development Organisation as a first stage booster to the Europa rocket and launched continuously until 1971.

Cost affected the aviation industry as a whole and TSR.2 was not the only major aircraft design cancelled in early 1965. Simultaneously, the P-1154 supersonic Harrier, yes, it was going to be called the Harrier was cancelled, because the Navy and RAF couldn't decide on a standard that suited both requirements and the HS.681 four engined jet transport, built to support the TSR.2 in the field. Simultaneously, the British and French had entered a binding agreement to develop a supersonic airliner and this was seen as the future path for Britain's aerospace industry. How wrong they were, of course, but Concorde was not cheap. Something had to give and TSR.2 was it.

Regarding the USA, after the 1964 election, in which Labour under Harold Wilson defeated the Tories, the government sent aviation and defence representatives to the US to examine new projects over there, including a trip to Fort Worth, where Robert MacNamara's TF-X was being designed and built. He accompanied the British delegation. This gave the British an idea of what the US was up to and most likely planted the seed that brought about the cancellation of the three aircraft projects for US made products. Nevertheless, toward the end of 1964 the government assured the British Aircraft Corporation that TSR.2 and Concorde would not be cancelled and George Edwards, former Vickers design engineer and BAC chairman wrote a letter to BAC personnel (I have a copy of that letter in my stash) assuring them of the future of both these projects.

In the end, the government bought US products to replace its own, owing to the emphasis by the US designers that they would be cheaper and on paper the offer looked too good to refuse. The F.111 would replace the TSR.2, the F-4 Phantom II would replace the P-1154 and the C-130 Hercules would replace the HS.681.

 

[DerAdlerIstGelandet]

Im not married thanks. Im not that stupid..... And you can try to provoke me by getting personal all you like. Im teflon from now on so get used to having me and my opinion around.....
And besides, you need you some youngish blood around here, otherwise shit gets old. Like politics and the British monarchy......lol

Actually, no we won't get used to having you around.

You were banned smokey. That hasn't change. We also don't allow dual accounts.

 

[GrauGeist]

Oh so what, they swapped it for another kind of deathtrap? The F-104? Please Oh thats logic...... It was all just about $$$ What was it? 916 built, 292 lost and 115 pilots killed..... And it didnt even see combat! Yeah such a great aircraft......

There were almost 3,000 built and it was in service from 1958 through 2004.

It broke, as well as set, world records (a few of which still stand) and it most certainly did see combat.
In Vietnam, it flew over 5,200 sorties. And contrary to popular belief, it was not a death trap, as only 14 F-104s were lost to all causes out of those 5,200+ sorties.

The F-104 losses in the Indian-Pakistan conflict can be chalked up to improper training, as the Tiawanese F-104s took down Chinese MiGs in their conflict.
The problem with the Indian pilots, is they fell for the turning dogfight bait and paid the price - the F-104 is literally a missile with a jockey and speed was it's primary weapon.
Just like the Me262 versus the P-51...when the Me262 used it's speed, it dictated the terms...if it took the bait for a turning fight, the P-51 dictated the terms.

The 916 figure is how many F-104s were purchased by West Germany, 262 German F-104s crashed (for various reasons, mainly inadequate training) for the cost of 116 Pilots' lives.