The Wasserfall, a guided SAM, developed to defend against Allied bombers

Discussion in 'WW2 General' started by DogFather, Jul 26, 2012.

  1. DogFather

    DogFather New Member

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    The Wasserfall Ferngelenkte Flakrakete (Waterfall, Remote-Controlled Anti-Aircraft Missile),was a World War II guided surface-to-air missile developed at
    Peenemünde, Germany. In spite of considerable development, Wasserfall never became operational. It sure could have been effective against an Allied
    bomber stream I would think. In March, of 1944, the Allies bombed Berlin, after getting the new P-51 long range fighter. This drew up and the destroyed the
    Luftwaffe and paved the way for D-Day, because it gave the Allies total air supremacy (source: PBS doc called Bombing Germany) .

    Had this SAM be used instead, it would slowed Allied progress a lot, assuming it was effective. This was just another of Hitler's blunders. What I have read
    about Hitler during this period, is that he was being given speed, along with other drugs. And other strange things, like ground up bull testicles. So, his
    judgement was very impaired. I realize he had never been a stable or rational man, even before the drugs.

    Hitler viewed the missile as defeatist and it was never deployed. Despite its potential to destroy a bomber stream. After Stalingrad, Hitler seemed to get even
    more disconnected from reality. Then Himmler began to build up his Waffen SS, into a very potent force. Himmler had no trouble recruiting soldiers for the
    war in the east, from the occupied countries, or again so the story goes. A lot of people would have liked to get rid of Uncle Joe.
     
  2. stona

    stona Well-Known Member

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    #2 stona, Jul 26, 2012
    Last edited: Jul 26, 2012
    One of the unexpected bonuses of the RAF Peenemunde raid (17-18 August 1943) was the death of a certain Dr Thiel,the propulsion specialist. His demise certainly had an impact on the development of the "Wasserfall" system and the two stage A-9 rocket.

    As for Hitler never having been rational or stable,where's the evidence. There is plenty to support him having been an extremely astute and able politician,however odious his policies may have been. The "carpet biting madman" image is neither accurate nor helpful.

    Steve
     
  3. razor1uk

    razor1uk Well-Known Member

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    #3 razor1uk, Jul 26, 2012
    Last edited: Jul 26, 2012
    I sort of agree, although his beleifs are not shared by myself, at least initially before WW2 got into its stride, and he still trusted some of his generals, he had his moments of foresight. Human is as human does, and luckely the veggies, the drugs, the stress, the politcal infightings, intruiges, chaos and his only reaching Corpral in WW1 combat, led in part to his downfall.

    Never underestimate an enemy, particularily a defeated one - not meaning Germans or Germany or the old Axis members.. I'm just a follower of Sun Tsu ethos...
     
  4. davebender

    davebender Well-Known Member

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    The Fw-187 would almost certainly have been effective against Allied bomber streams too. Perhaps Me-262 powered by Jumo 004A engines also.

    But how effective vs the cost of other German weapons systems? Fw-187 aircraft and Wasserfall missiles aren't free so it's important to guess correctly as to which weapons provide the most bang for the buck. And you don't get the benefit of hindsight.
     
  5. DogFather

    DogFather New Member

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    Well, blaming all the world's problems on the Jews and communists was not rational in my opinion. And suggested mental health problems according to what I have read. Dr
    Morell's Vitamultin, was analysed by the SS and found to have Methamphetamine. Amphetamine intoxication would explain his endless euphoria and his inability to see reality.
    I think it's helpful to know the truth about Hitler. And how his insanity was being exacerbated by large drug doses.
     
  6. davebender

    davebender Well-Known Member

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    Off topic but...
    Albert Speer ("Inside the Third Reich") probably provides the best picture of Hitler's behavior. His descriptions suggest Hitler became less rational as he got older. Not surprising since he had Parkinsons disease.
     
  7. stona

    stona Well-Known Member

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    This thread will last about 10 nanoseconds!
    Steve
     
  8. DerAdlerIstGelandet

    DerAdlerIstGelandet Der Crew Chief
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    Why is that?

    If people act like adults, then there should be no problem. It just so happens that there are plenty of people in this forum that should be in a Kindergarten, because they act like teen age brats who's parents never taught them manners or respect. These people are on both sides of the spectrum in regards to Allies/Axis. There is no monopoly whatsoever.

    Now if that is not what you were referring to, then I apologize and just carry on...:)
     
  9. psteel

    psteel Member

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    #9 psteel, Aug 5, 2012
    Last edited: Aug 5, 2012
    Reportedly the soviets took the Wasserfall and Schmetterling SAM missiles guidance systems and scientists back to Russian after the war. Stalin wanted a ring of SAM batteries around Moscow and other cities. Development was slow and experienced difficulty with both guidance systems. However the pace of post war jet development rendered both systems obsolete before completion and both were cancelled in 1950.



    R-101

    R-102

    R-108

    R-112

    As a rule 7 years of peace time development is similar to one year of war time development so given the problems experienced after the war ; its doubtful either system could have been deployed before 1946. Mind you all such special weapons had their infancy before the war and in the early years. They were all delayed or slowed by Hitler for one reason or another and could have been readied earlier, had the priority or need recognized.

    USSBS reports that Wasserfall took 500 man-hours to build while V-2 was around 4000 man-hours, so in theory 8 Wasserfall could be built for each V-2 built. Eventually the soviets would develop this into the Scud and maybe that was a more appropriate use of such resources?


    The whole missile-rocket program is a good example of how German armament production had become under Nazi rule. Through the last years of the war the Germans built >50,0000 rockets/missiles, divided over about 3 dozen different weapons program, of which about 1/3 had guidance systems . That’s about 1500 rockets per program. Development and training appears to have gobbled up thousands of missiles, which is probably the main reason only a few actually reached mass production and operational usage.

    It doesn’t take much to image what could have been achieved had this industrial/development effort been focused into only a handful of programs so they all reached operational status. Historically the following rockets-missiles were operational; V-1 ; V-2 ; X-1 plus the HS-293. Follow on programs like the X-4 and Hs-117, plus Rheinbolt showed promise as well provided enough design and development had been focused on them instead of the dozens of other programs.
     
  10. Matt308

    Matt308 Glock Perfection
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    10 picosecs if you continue to defend Hitler as a rationale and compassionate human being in a WWII SAM discussion. I won't warn you a single time more. I've already taken you out to the woodshed once.
     
  11. FLYBOYJ

    FLYBOYJ "THE GREAT GAZOO"
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    Ditto...

    You want to give any accolades to Hitler around here, just ban yourself so we don't waste calories pecking on the keyboard.
     
  12. stona

    stona Well-Known Member

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    #12 stona, Aug 6, 2012
    Last edited: Aug 6, 2012

    When I queried someone's distasteful pro nazi views,which I do not share, on this very forum,with a moderator of this forum, I received this reply,which I accepted in the spirit in which it was intended.

    "I agree that such apologies and views of Hitler are offensive or wrong, but we live in a world of free speech. I will not censor anyone, nor will any mod.
    If he makes a personal attack on someone, then I will intervene and shut him down."

    I can't see anything posted by me which would contravene this advice.

    I believe a reasonable and balanced assessment of any historical figure to be the duty of anyone seriously interested in history. It was not I that raised the subject of Hitler's state of mind.
    I will however refrain from making any more posts in this thread not directly related to German rocket technology.

    Cheers

    Steve
     
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