The Yellow Noses

Discussion in 'Aircraft Markings and Camouflage' started by Njaco, Oct 14, 2008.

  1. Njaco

    Njaco The Pop-Tart Whisperer
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    Martin Caidin was one of the very first authors I read about WWII aircraft and battles and always thought he was pretty good. Recently some members suggested this wasn't so and as I bow to those with far more knowledge than I, I took their word for it but I still reserved my child memories. Until now.

    Today I'm re-reading his account of the Schweinfurt raid, "Black Thursday" and a couple of things caught my eye.

    In one passage he mentions "yellow-nosed Fw 190s". IIRC I can't seem to recall any camo on Fw 190s that had yellow noses. Maybe someone can clear that up?

    and second....

    pg 200 there is this paragraph,

    "The enemy fighters were marked with a dazzling variety of colors and stripes. Me-109s were distinctive with gleaming paint surfaces that featured an orange-colored nose and underside of the cowling, with the rest of the airplane black. Several Fw 190s were completely yellow and polished to a high gloss. Me-110s had a large yellow patch on the center underside of the airplanes and many Ju-88s were seen with all-white bellies and multi-colored striped tops.

    The 3d Air Division reported still further variations in fighter identifications. They saw Ju-88s with all-black bellies and upper surfaces painted cream or white. Me-109s appeared with green bellies and the rest of the aircraft all silver. The four-engined Fw-200K Kuriers were all painted silver. Several Fw 190s were seen with yellow noses and green cowlings, and the He-177 four-engined bombers appeared in mixed black-and-white color scheme."

    Some of these camo colors I've never seen or heard of! Anybody have any ideas?
     
  2. rochie

    rochie Well-Known Member

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    njaco i've posted a question about an all yellow fw190 after reading about one in the big show by pierre clostermann he describes christian martell blowing up an all yellow a6 in the air after a long one on one dogfight on 27 july 1943 he also believed it to belong to jg2, no respone though so i look forward to you being more succsesful !
     
  3. Erich

    Erich the old Sage
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    pretty simple gents, JG 1 and JG 11 and JG 26 had yellow ID undercowlings. There Were NO all yellow nosed birds except in JG 1 for a very very short time in it's 1st staffel with yellow prop or an all yellow nose, but it was not common with the whole staffel.

    JG 1 then later in 43 early 44 went with black/white horizontal stripes for the I. gruppe
     
  4. rochie

    rochie Well-Known Member

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    thanks Erich
     
  5. Njaco

    Njaco The Pop-Tart Whisperer
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    I agree, Erich, I know yellow undercowlings were used but I could'nt get past a yellow nose except Hermann Graf's with his yellow and red nose similar to Rot 17 in Rochie's sig.

    How about the other descriptions? Silver Fw 200s? Something didn't jive.
     
  6. Erich

    Erich the old Sage
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    originally the JG 26 Geschwader was nicknamed the yellow nosers or Abbeville Kids............pretty goofy really.

    yellow id marks on the undercowling on the 109's and Fw 190A's
     
  7. Airframes

    Airframes Benevolens Magister

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    Perhaps he/they (Caidin, and the aircrews concerned) meant the yellow front cowling ring on the FW190's encountered?
    As for the other schemes quoted, it does seem bizzar, but, who knows how a 'colour' might have appeared, allowing for the light and conditions at altitude, and in the heat of combat? It's not the first time I have heard, or read, about such things, when authors, sometimes themselves the pilot(s) concerned, have described, for example, "..the black belly of the Me109...", when it is known that the aircraft concerned was not 'black bellied', but in one of the 'standard' camouflage schemes. It is irritating though, isn't it?
     
  8. Erich

    Erich the old Sage
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    there was no yellow cowling ring till 1945. no as the Fw's turned over to pass through the heavy bomber formations the undercowling is plainly seen
     
  9. Airframes

    Airframes Benevolens Magister

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    Ah! Sorry Erich. I hadn't read the part about the actual mission properly.
    Now I understand, which makes it more irritating when descriptions are, presumably, incorrect!
    Terry.
     
  10. Erich

    Erich the old Sage
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    well T even with explaining to some of the B-24/B-17 crewmen over the many years they still firmly believe what they saw to this day ..........

    ah well

    the nose ring became a theater marking especially on the Ost front but also some of the Fw 190A-8 and A-9's of JG 301 used a yellow ring in 1945 along with their defense band of red/yellow, which to me even if it was for the young inexperienced pilot of the JG to form up on the leader what a stupid invitation for Mustangs to come on over and shoot them down.

    E ~
     
  11. Njaco

    Njaco The Pop-Tart Whisperer
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    Erich, how well known were the camo markings for the LW in 1960? If I had a gunner tell me he saw a purple plane with orange polkadots, I wouldn't begrudge his recollection but I would investigate further, knowing that that marking would be extraordinary. As this book was written in '59-60 maybe the markings weren't as precise as today?
     
  12. Airframes

    Airframes Benevolens Magister

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    That's a good point, Njaco. I still have some reference books I either bought, or was given, in the '60's, and it is apparent that a lot more detailed information is available today.
     
  13. Erich

    Erich the old Sage
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    obviously the colour interpretors were not there, the photos were in collections, the LW veterans were still amongst us not in dwindling numbers like today, but you get my point in this case you cannot teach old men new tricks when it comes to camo of Lw A/C as it was way too varied. one of the considerable problems is having single engine 109's flying from night fighter staffels during 1944, and the noting of all blue or all black and black/blue 109's ............. yes there sure were on daylight ops. All white was reported for twin engine Ju 88 and Bf 100g's which is typical browning out-cream winter camo used in late 43-early 44 years
     
  14. Njaco

    Njaco The Pop-Tart Whisperer
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    understood. Thnx!
     
  15. rochie

    rochie Well-Known Member

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    found this and was wondering how real it was it seems to be the fw190 described in the big show or is it someone else's idea of what that aircraft should look like ?
    source profile publications
     

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  16. Airframes

    Airframes Benevolens Magister

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    Now that's interestring. Wouldn't mind knowing the answer myself.
     
  17. Njaco

    Njaco The Pop-Tart Whisperer
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    The yellow might actually be a sand color not so yellow but G3 is for NJG 101 - curious why he would be flying that?
     
  18. rochie

    rochie Well-Known Member

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    dunno mate but in clostermann's book he say's it was painted yellow all over and polished like a jewel and later they found out it wasn't graf but maybe it was oesau ????????

    the profile i posted was from 25 year old magazine wich had the same profile you posted in your red 23 thread
     
  19. Erich

    Erich the old Sage
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    sorry that is all bull S. Clostermann has some many myths interweaved in his annals it is pathetic.

    several captured examples of fighter and fighter-bomber versions of the Fw 190 were given some pretty colourful schmes, red, yellow, blue, etc....
     
  20. ccheese

    ccheese Member In Perpetuity
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    That FW-190A-4 was probably a sand color, rather that a yellow or orange.
    A cheap camo job in the desert.

    Charles
     
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