soaringtractor
Banned
- 33
- May 8, 2014
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Shortround You are correct !!! The Merlin XX (20) was a SINGLE STAGE supercharger with a 2nd speed added !!! Most wartime production was this engine !!!! The 60 series 2 stage 2 speed was available in 1942,V1650-3 and production 1943 !!! This was the fabled high altitude Merlin !!! Not all merlins were created equal !!!More thinking the way that Rolls-Royce developed engines would have got more out of the design sooner. And, of course, they would probably install a Merlin XX supercharger and, possibly, a 2 speed drive.
I have said this before. Dive bombers against land targets only made sense when the defending AA was patchy and/or low quality.
The Mosquito range is too short for the mission. Unless, as I said earlier, you launch from a carrier. Even then I am not sure they could get back to base (not being equipped to land on a carrier either).
More thinking the way that Rolls-Royce developed engines would have got more out of the design sooner. And, of course, they would probably install a Merlin XX supercharger and, possibly, a 2 speed drive.
Shortround The merlin XX (20) V1650-1 was a SINGLE stage supercharger with a 2nd speed added, it was NOT the FABLED 60 series high altitude merlin everybody drools over !!! The V1650-1 when fitted to the 1200 P40 F & L Kittyhawks made little to NO difference in overall performance of the P40 !!! The supercharger compressor wheel was said to be larger than the merlins which negated any advantage of the 2nd speed on the merlin!!! There was little to no improvement to the altitude with the merlin and the Allison was faster ant lower altitudes !!! NOT all merlins were created equal, Merlins used THREE different superchargers during their life !!!This is not new knowledge. It is well known here.
Shortround's suggestion is because the Merlin XX supercharger was superior to the one fitted to the V-1710. This enabled the FTH to be several thousand feet higher than for the V-1710.
The Merlin XX (20) was NOT the great 2 stage 2 speed merlin!!! That was the 60 series 1942/ production 1943 !!! The Merlin XX (20) and the V1650-1 Has a SINGLE stage supercharger with a 2nd speed added !!! This was NOT the 60 series 2 stage 2 speed High Altitude Merlin everyone gets goofy about !!! The facts !!!
Why would you give the Allison to RR to "develop???" You do know don't you the 2 stage superchrger was invented in the USA with patents being issued in 1938???? RR did not invent the 2 stage supercharger!! The grumman F4F Wildcat with a PW R1830 was THE first plane to fly with a 2 stage supercharger !!!! Also PW added that 2 stage 2 speed supercharger to the R2800 as used on the F4U -4 Corsair and the F6F Hellcat. The P47 added a turbocharger to the R2800 for high altitude performance !!! The better question would have been why was not this info available to Allison ???? Jesse Vincent of Packard had access to the 2 stage superchargers early on, he had an air version A2500 he was working on of the PT Boat engine M2500 that used a 2 stage supercharger. That engine got shelved when Packard agreed to build the Merlin FOR THE BRITS !!!! USA had the technology but the USAAF was hung up on turbos that could not be fitted to most fighters, BUT the Navy saw the need !!!Or give the V-1710 to Rolls-Royce to develop?
you might want ot look at some graphs or charts rather than just go off of peak speeds.Shortround The merlin XX (20) V1650-1 was a SINGLE stage supercharger with a 2nd speed added, it was NOT the FABLED 60 series high altitude merlin everybody drools over !!! The V1650-1 when fitted to the 1200 P40 F & L Kittyhawks made little to NO difference in overall performance of the P40 !!! The supercharger compressor wheel was said to be larger than the merlins which negated any advantage of the 2nd speed on the merlin!!! There was little to no improvement to the altitude with the merlin and the Allison was faster ant lower altitudes !!! NOT all merlins were created equal, Merlins used THREE different superchargers during their life !!!
WRONG !!!! The Allison was still faster at lower altitudes up to 20,000 ft above that speed was about equal and very little if any altitude was gained with the merlin. Why only 1200 were ever built and they went back to the Allison !!! The Allison was 300# LIGHTER, and a simplier engine to maintain and work on !!!So what? Merlin XX is still much better than the V-1710 available at the time, let alone Klimov M-105
A single stage Merlin added to the P-40F/L greatly improved it's performance and survivability.
The G.55 was probably the sexiest fighter ever designed when looking the side elevation, however it does not offer anything over what Fw 190 did 15 or 20 months earlier. Have surplus of DB 605 engines? Install them on the Fw 190s.
Re.2001 (and Ki-61) shows that DB 601, good performance long range were possible in a single aircraft, but it was late to 1940, while German priorities of 1943 were not dictating long-range fighters.
The He 219 with BMW 801 would've probably been a good fighter.
I'm thinking of the convoy fights involving a lot of (fascinating, but slightly ridiculous) skirmishing between Venturas, Short Sunderlands, Sea-Gladiators, Fulmars, Ju 88's, Ar 196, SM 79's, He 115's, FW 200, and the occasional Sea Hurricane. An A6M2-N could handle a Martlet, or Sea Hurricane on at least equal footing. Can slaughter Fulmars, Gladiators or Fairy Swordfish. And can operate from almost anywhere a Submarine can get to. Think about it a little more.Call me sceptic when it is about floatplane fighters in and around Europe
Every unescorted bomber was highly vulnerable, while percentage of killed He 11s vs. bombs dropped was no worse than of the Ju 88, Do 17 or Wellingtons in 1940. Every bomber was slow in these days, even the Ju 88 was much slower than non-so-fast Hurrucanes.
Germany needed faster bombers, that I will agree, however the B7A does not cut the mustard with 1100 lbs in a bomb bay, while any external bomb load cuts the speed.
I think what rockets do is destroy all the lighter vehicles around tanks, which makes tanks very vulnerable. And in enough numbers they can actually destroy tanks too. The Soviets in particular used a variety of rockets some quite heavy.Rockets will not do against tanks.
Bombing campaign was done with aircraft coming out from production lines. There was no option 'let's wait until there is enough of Mosquitoes so we can bomb Germany'. Escort fighter can kill enemy fighters & their pilots, bomber Mosquitoes cannot.
By the same token IF you compare a P40 E that is an EARLIER version. The M/N are a better comparison, why more Merlin powered P40 were NOT built !!!you might want ot look at some graphs or charts rather than just go off of peak speeds.
Yes the P-40F was either the same speed or within a few mph of the Allison P-40 (make sure you are comparing contemporary P-40s and not the later Ns) but at 20,000ft and above the P-40F was 20-30mph faster than the P-40E, it also enjoyed a significantly better climb rate at altitudes in the 20 thousand foot range.
WRONG !!!! The Allison was still faster at lower altitudes up to 20,000 ft above that speed was about equal and very little if any altitude was gained with the merlin. Why only 1200 were ever built and they went back to the Allison !!! The Allison was 300# LIGHTER, and a simplier engine to maintain and work on !!!
By the same token IF you compare a P40 E that is an EARLIER version. The M/N are a better comparison, why more Merlin powered P40 were NOT built !!!
Will you PLEASE look up the dates?
The P-40F prototype flew in the summer of 1941 (June 30th), but production had to wait for Packard to get up to speed. Jan 3rd 1942 sees the delivery of the first production P-40F, it doesn't matter if the P-40M can fly at 500mph or climb to the stratosphere in 3 minutes if it doesn't show up until Nov of 1942 and the N doesn't show up until Feb of 1943.
Increased production of P-38s and P-47 also decreased demand for P-40s off all kinds and please remember that when the P-40M goes into production multiple prototypes of P-51s with two stage Merlins are flying and orders for several thousand Merlin P-51s are on the books.
Packard will continue to build thousands of single stage Merlins for British bombers and Canadian Hurricanes.
I was replying to soaring tractor with that post. sorry for any confusion.
Why would you give the Allison to RR to "develop???" You do know don't you the 2 stage superchrger was invented in the USA with patents being issued in 1938???? RR did not invent the 2 stage supercharger!! The grumman F4F Wildcat with a PW R1830 was THE first plane to fly with a 2 stage supercharger !!!! Also PW added that 2 stage 2 speed supercharger to the R2800 as used on the F4U -4 Corsair and the F6F Hellcat. The P47 added a turbocharger to the R2800 for high altitude performance !!! The better question would have been why was not this info available to Allison ???? Jesse Vincent of Packard had access to the 2 stage superchargers early on, he had an air version A2500 he was working on of the PT Boat engine M2500 that used a 2 stage supercharger. That engine got shelved when Packard agreed to build the Merlin FOR THE BRITS !!!! USA had the technology but the USAAF was hung up on turbos that could not be fitted to most fighters, BUT the Navy saw the need !!!
I always thought the Fw 190 (until the D which came so late in the war) had some issues with both range and higher altitude combat. The G.55 or Re 2005 was also much more maneuverable - much better turning anyway.
I'm thinking of the convoy fights involving a lot of (fascinating, but slightly ridiculous) skirmishing between Venturas, Short Sunderlands, Sea-Gladiators, Fulmars, Ju 88's, Ar 196, SM 79's, He 115's, FW 200, and the occasional Sea Hurricane. An A6M2-N could handle a Martlet, or Sea Hurricane on at least equal footing. Can slaughter Fulmars, Gladiators or Fairy Swordfish. And can operate from almost anywhere a Submarine can get to. Think about it a little more.
Every unescorted bomber except the Mosquito! haha. I think faster bombers are safer. The B7A was faster than a Hurricane. And an 1100 lb bomb load is plenty for a dive bomber, one big bomb that actually hits is much better than 5 that miss.
I think what rockets do is destroy all the lighter vehicles around tanks, which makes tanks very vulnerable. And in enough numbers they can actually destroy tanks too. The Soviets in particular used a variety of rockets some quite heavy.
In my scenario, fighter bombers initially would draw Luftwaffe response and shoot down all those Me 109's and Fw 190s. Meanwhile Mosquitoes can actually hit their production plants, airfields etc. unlike the 4 engined heavys which tend to miss almost all the time. Over time of course the German night fighter response gets heavier and more effective, but at the same time, Allied fighters achieve longer and longer range. I never said cancel the P-51 did I?
The Mosquito was referred to as 'The Wooden Wonder', in that approximately 60% by weight of the aircraft was wood of one species or other. Canadian yellow spruce for the laminated wing spars from British Columbia, balsa from Ecuador (which despite its lack of strength is technically a hardwood), and birch – for the plywood – from Wisconsin and the British Isles; all of these played their part, along with other woods such as Douglas fir. The spruce, vital for the wing spars and other components, had to come from old-growth forests, be perfectly straight and close-ringed, and have an ultimate strength of approximately 60N/mm2 (in today's values); this was equal to some light alloys. The Air Ministry publication DTD36B, which contained the specification for spruce to be used in aircraft construction, was quite a strict one, laying down values for density, moisture content, straightness of grain and other criteria. Only one in ten trees felled passed the necessary tests for wood to be used in Mosquito wing spars. Certain areas of the airframe used ash for its hard-wearing qualities, and the wing-root pick-up structures were made from walnut, chosen for its great strength.Going back to making more Mosquito's, it is worlds of difference in making wood vs metal airplanes in the tens of thousands. One, metal, you make in any quantity you want, the other you have to find and import or grow, harvest, etc. Then there is the huge quality control difference between something you make and control, metal, vs wood which you have to individually inspect. Not saying it couldn't be done, but....