Two T-38 crash, one dead

[davparlr]

Two T-38s crash at Laughlin AFB, one dead.

Two USAF T-38C Talons Crash, One Pilot Killed at Laughlin AFB

Two badly damaged T-38Cs seen on runway in photos from Texas Training Facility. Fourth T-38 crash in 2021. One pilot is dead and two others are injured

theaviationist.com

Another crash of a two ship formation in the T-38. Two ship landings are probably the most hazardous event in the training syllabus. Your flying fast, around 180 mph on final, only a few feet apart, and you are getting closer to the ground, and, you have to depend that the other aircraft operators knowing what they are doing. Upon flair, speed slows slightly but margin of error approaches zero, and instructor ability to recover from error also approaches zero. AF is pondering elimination this task from undergraduate pilot training (UPT). Today, T-38 training is done only for those who are going on to fighter/bomber operations and probably are the better performers of the class. In my day, all AF pilots trained in the T-38 so the performance of the students could be less than that of today, however, there were no two ship crashes while I was in training. Moving this training to the operational command, maybe safer, although more expensive. I do not know if this accident was on take off or landing. As just about in all aircrafts, take offs are easier, and less hazardous than landings.

Side note. The toughest task for me, and least looked forward to, in the T-38, was flying No. 4 in a four ship formation when No 2 was a student. Staying on the wing of a bobbing No. 2 could be hair raising. I tended to just back off a bit and try flying off lead with a buffer. IPs didn't like this, it spread out the formation, but I never got yelled at, or was I told to close up, they probably knew the problem.

 

[Capt. Vick]

Sad

 

[Gnomey]

A shame to hear. My condolences to the families.

 

[beercamel2]

I disagree... Flying formation IS inherently more dangerous than single ship..

Two T-38s crash at Laughlin AFB, one dead.

Two USAF T-38C Talons Crash, One Pilot Killed at Laughlin AFB

Two badly damaged T-38Cs seen on runway in photos from Texas Training Facility. Fourth T-38 crash in 2021. One pilot is dead and two others are injured

theaviationist.com

Another crash of a two ship formation in the T-38. Two ship landings are probably the most hazardous event in the training syllabus. Your flying fast, around 180 mph on final, only a few feet apart, and you are getting closer to the ground, and, you have to depend that the other aircraft operators knowing what they are doing. Upon flair, speed slows slightly but margin of error approaches zero, and instructor ability to recover from error also approaches zero. AF is pondering elimination this task from undergraduate pilot training (UPT). Today, T-38 training is done only for those who are going on to fighter/bomber operations and probably are the better performers of the class. In my day, all AF pilots trained in the T-38 so the performance of the students could be less than that of today, however, there were no two ship crashes while I was in training. Moving this training to the operational command, maybe safer, although more expensive. I do not know if this accident was on take off or landing. As just about in all aircrafts, take offs are easier, and less hazardous than landings.

Side note. The toughest task for me, and least looked forward to, in the T-38, was flying No. 4 in a four ship formation when No 2 was a student. Staying on the wing of a bobbing No. 2 could be hair raising. I tended to just back off a bit and try flying off lead with a buffer. IPs didn't like this, it spread out the formation, but I never got yelled at, or was I told to close up, they probably knew the problem.

I disagree...

Please understand I am NOT tossing a F@#$ Grenade here.. but it sounds like you were a USAF transport pilot.. ONE mishap does NOT mean changing the req's for fighter pilots should change. If the RATE of mishaps increases.. then the problem should be identified and fixed. ( I went to USAF Safety School in July 1986)

Formation flying IS inherently more dangerous than single ship... SLIGHTLY more dangerous... BUT... proper skills , discipline, training, and PROFICIENCY.. make it MUCH safer than a standard tactical mission. Additionally, formation landings are NOT any more dangerous than standard formation flying.. in fact, I ENJOYED form landings as an IP (USAF Instructor pilot) and did NOT consider it more dangerous than many other things we did. ( Like low level flying at 100' AGL and 600 Knots indicated.. a normal sized bird in the face will kill you more often than not!) I have made many, many form landings and enough of them in 200' ceiling and 1/2 mile vis to brag about it. ( European weather!) Its just something fighter pilots MUST be able to do.

I have slightly more tha 3000 hours in USAF Tactical jets (F-4, F-16) .. so I DO know a bit about formation flying...

This mishap is sad.. but assuming its because formation flying is so dangerous is a false assumption..

Formation flying is absolutely required for Tactical aviation...

 

[davparlr]

I disagree... Flying formation IS inherently more dangerous than single ship..

ONE mishap does NOT mean changing the req's for fighter pilots should change.

This is the second in two years

Air Force Stops T-38 Formation Landings After 2019 Fatal Crash - Air Force Magazine

I did not make a recommendation on what they should or not do, just mention it. I do not profess to knowing the ins-and-outs of this decision. I do think it would have been more appropriate for my day since all pilots trained the same. I can tell you that there were students in my class that I would not want landing in formation with me or even flying with me, or anywhere around me.

Additionally, formation landings are NOT any more dangerous than standard formation flying.

I do not agree with this, and, apparently the AF also is concerned. Two crashes and deaths in two years would cause concern. I too enjoyed take offs and landings in formation. Flying formation was fun and rewarding and I was comfortable with it. I'm not so sure I would have been comfortable flying with someone in the bottom third of the class as our instructors had to do.

I do not think anything in my post was inaccurate.

I would agree that flying low level, high speed, is very dangerous, more so than formation flying, at higher altitude. I think an astronaut was killed in a T-38 due to a bird strike.

I wouldn't think whether formation flying in the weather is particularly challenging. Of course, I think flying formation in turbulence could be quite sporty. Did you have any limitations on formation landing in turbulent weather?

We were trained for CAT2 landings, 100' ceiling and ¼ mile visibility (not in formation). Never flew one though, only two runways in the world was CAT2 qualifed.

I was in class 71-03 at Vance, we had 5 fighter slots come down for a class of 52. Where did you go to UPT and what class were you in.

 

[beercamel2]

Two T-38s crash at Laughlin AFB, one dead.

Two USAF T-38C Talons Crash, One Pilot Killed at Laughlin AFB

Two badly damaged T-38Cs seen on runway in photos from Texas Training Facility. Fourth T-38 crash in 2021. One pilot is dead and two others are injured

theaviationist.com

Another crash of a two ship formation in the T-38. Two ship landings are probably the most hazardous event in the training syllabus. Your flying fast, around 180 mph on final, only a few feet apart, and you are getting closer to the ground, and, you have to depend that the other aircraft operators knowing what they are doing. Upon flair, speed slows slightly but margin of error approaches zero, and instructor ability to recover from error also approaches zero. AF is pondering elimination this task from undergraduate pilot training (UPT). Today, T-38 training is done only for those who are going on to fighter/bomber operations and probably are the better performers of the class. In my day, all AF pilots trained in the T-38 so the performance of the students could be less than that of today, however, there were no two ship crashes while I was in training. Moving this training to the operational command, maybe safer, although more expensive. I do not know if this accident was on take off or landing. As just about in all aircrafts, take offs are easier, and less hazardous than landings.

Side note. The toughest task for me, and least looked forward to, in the T-38, was flying No. 4 in a four ship formation when No 2 was a student. Staying on the wing of a bobbing No. 2 could be hair raising. I tended to just back off a bit and try flying off lead with a buffer. IPs didn't like this, it spread out the formation, but I never got yelled at, or was I told to close up, they probably knew the problem.

Total BS..

Formation flying most dangerous! Ridiculous.. have you every been in an air to air fight? Even in training when you have more than a dozen aircraft. in a swirling high 'g', confused engagement.. that approaching dangerous.. but is necessary training.

What about formation flying at 100' agl at 500 to 600 knots?
Why are there more fatalities in the TAF (Tactical Air Forces) associated with low level ops than ANY OTHER mission?

TWO mishaps in TWO years LOL... LOL.... LOL.. thats hilarious!! in 2000.. the last years I was in the USAF reserves the TAF we lost between 40 and 55 Fighters a YEAR.. with about 30 fatalities A YEAR..

Your opinion of formation flying is NOT based in reality.. IF the USAF is re-evaluating form training .. its NOT to eliminate it.. but to IMPROVE it..

 

[beercamel2]

Did you have any limitations on formation landing in turbulent weather?

Not other than aircraft limits.. no turbulence limits at all, crosswind limits, RCR limits, and weather limits.. . Turbulence made it more work..

We were trained for CAT2 landings, 100' ceiling and ¼ mile visibility (not in formation). Never flew one though, only two runways in the world was CAT2 qualified.

The USAF only qualified Fighter crews to CAT 1 mins.. 200 1/2.. and then only in mission necessary situations.. the NORMAL WX mins were 300/1.

I have been an airline Captain (Wide body International airplanes, currently B777) for 24 years of my 33 year airline career.. and we fly to CAT3B ( or in the current parlance... CAT 3 with rollout). RVR 300 feet no ceiling.. no requirement to see anything to land.. I average about 2 to 4 actual CAT 3 auto-lands a year. I have done CAT 3 landings in DC-10's, Md-11's, A-310's, and B-777's ... I have slightly over 3000 hours in USAF fighters and something over 16,000 hours as a wide body Captain.. More if you count my F/O and S/O time..

I was in class 71-03 at Vance, we had 5 fighter slots come down for a class of 52. Where did you go to UPT and what class were you in.

I was in 83-05 at Vance.. 'The Moose Hunters' I don't remeber how may fighters came down but it was about 1/3 the class. I remember two F-15's, one F-16, two T-33's, three F-111's, one A-10 and a bunch of F-4's.. there were also a scary number of FAIP's assigned

 

[davparlr]

Total BS..

Formation flying most dangerous! Ridiculous.. have you every been in an air to air fight? Even in training when you have more than a dozen aircraft. in a swirling high 'g', confused engagement.. that approaching dangerous.. but is necessary training.

What about formation flying at 100' agl at 500 to 600 knots?
Why are there more fatalities in the TAF (Tactical Air Forces) associated with low level ops than ANY OTHER mission?

TWO mishaps in TWO years LOL... LOL.... LOL.. thats hilarious!! in 2000.. the last years I was in the USAF reserves the TAF we lost between 40 and 55 Fighters a YEAR.. with about 30 fatalities A YEAR..

Your opinion of formation flying is NOT based in reality.. IF the USAF is re-evaluating form training .. its NOT to eliminate it.. but to IMPROVE it..

I am not sure of what tack you are sitting on. The subject was UPT not squadron operational training. My comment "probably the most hazardous event in the training syllabus" is probably correct for UPT. Obviously squadron level training and operations where the aircraft operational envelop is often pushed, aircraft on aircraft combat simulation forces close proximities, and air-to-ground, and low level penetration training requires close proximity to the ground and introduces such concerns as target fixation is extremely hazardous. No body said formation training should be eliminated. Nobody argued it was not important. Nobody even recommended changing it. However. four aircraft loses and three dead pilots (including students?) in two years in the Air Training Command, is a big deal and bad for AF publicity.

Abusive language is not appreciated nor warranted.

 

[gumbyk]

What is the goal for formation landings?
I can't think of any time you'd carry one out other than training to be able to say you've done them.

 

[davparlr]

Actually, I'm not sure. There are a couple of guys here that could answer that, including beercamel2 and Biff15. It is totally cool to see and to perform, but I,m not sure of operational use other than maybe escorting damaged aircraft where damaged aircraft takes the lead but terminates at touchdown. We did practice echelon. eg. all aircraft are stacked on one side or the other, landings where lead breaks from initial, a few seconds later 2 breaks, a few seconds later 3, etc. I suspect this is more common. Again, I'm just guessing, there are others who are quite familiar with multi-aircraft operations.

 

[gumbyk]

Actually, I'm not sure. There are a couple of guys here that could answer that, including beercamel2 and Biff15. It is totally cool to see and to perform, but I,m not sure of operational use other than maybe escorting damaged aircraft where damaged aircraft takes the lead but terminates at touchdown. We did practice echelon. eg. all aircraft are stacked on one side or the other, landings where lead breaks from initial, a few seconds later 2 breaks, a few seconds later 3, etc. I suspect this is more common. Again, I'm just guessing, there are others who are quite familiar with multi-aircraft operations.

Yes, landing from the break is what I've done with the limited formation work. I've also done 1 formation landing, but, while we can do them, they're seen as an unnecessary risk in a tail-wheel aircraft.

As for escorting a damaged plane down, the escort always carries out a go-around. If the lead has a handling issue on the ground you've got a two-plane pile-up.

 

[Thumpalumpacus]

As for escorting a damaged plane down, the escort always carries out a go-around. If the lead has a handling issue on the ground you've got a two-plane pile-up.

This is how the fighters at my base escorted their IFEs. Heavies such as -52s or -135s landed without chase planes.

 

[FLYBOYJ]

Yes, landing from the break is what I've done with the limited formation work. I've also done 1 formation landing, but, while we can do them, they're seen as an unnecessary risk in a tail-wheel aircraft.

As for escorting a damaged plane down, the escort always carries out a go-around. If the lead has a handling issue on the ground you've got a two-plane pile-up.

Agree!