US Coastal Air Defences in WW2

[GrauGeist]

The Luftwaffe did have bombers that could have mounted a raid *if* the Germans had set up clandestine fields in a chain across the North Atlantic or used their BV222 flying boats with refueling spots along the way.

But the logistics would have been extensive and most likely discovered via enigma.

The notion of a transatlantic "America bomber" with it's prototypes was about as much effort they ever put into such an endeavor, so the "land hopping" idea wasn't going to happen (although more realistic, to be honest).

 

[Thumpalumpacus]

The Luftwaffe did have bombers that could have mounted a raid *if* the Germans had set up clandestine fields in a chain across the North Atlantic or used their BV222 flying boats with refueling spots along the way.

But the logistics would have been extensive and most likely discovered via enigma.

There's also the whole getting around England thing. The Azores could be used, by invasion, but I think the Germans were pretty busy for that sort of thing by 1943, when the relevant bombers might have been flying (after some extra effort).

 

[GrauGeist]

Well, the flight dustance from Norway to Greenland is about 1,500 miles, the Do26 made supply and personnel flights to the weather stations in Greenland often.

So that much, they did do.

As far as bombers go, the Fw200 could make that flight easily enough.

Now, to get to North America, the German's would also have to set up a field in Newfoundland, which could be supplied via U-Boat but is doable. Lots of remote spots and the flight from Greenland to Newfoundland is about 1,300 miles.

The problem now, is to get to New York, bomb it and get back to the secret Nazi base in Newfoundland. One way to New York (I'm assuming they'd want to bomb New York, because New Hampshire doesn't sound as prestigious and what could possibly be worth bombing in Maine?) is about 1,200 miles and just beyond the Fw200's range.

The one bomber that *could* do the Newfoundland to New York and back leg, would be the Ju290.

But the logistics, preparations and precisice navigation would have to all come together in one huge push to pull it off.

You know, there really isn't anything in Maine worth bombing, is there?

 

[SaparotRob]

They could've used the Horten Stealth Bomber.

 

[EwenS]

You know, there really isn't anything in Maine worth bombing, is there?

Well there were shipyards at Portland, Maine that built Ocean & Liberty ships from 1941.

New England Shipbuilding Corporation - Wikipedia

en.m.wikipedia.org

And I know that there was an air base at Brunswick because by 1943 it was being used to form and work FAA squadrons.

It is then only another 100 miles or so to Boston, Massachusetts.

 

[GrauGeist]

I stand corrected - Maine is now on the list.

Now about New Hampshire...

 

[EwenS]

I stand corrected - Maine is now on the list.

Now about New Hampshire...

USN naval base at Portsmouth NH. Major builder of submarines from 1917 to 1969.

Portsmouth Naval Shipyard - Wikipedia

en.m.wikipedia.org

 

[GrauGeist]

Oh no, I gave up Maine but won't budge on New Hampshire.

 

[wuzak]

There's also the whole getting around England thing. The Azores could be used, by invasion, but I think the Germans were pretty busy for that sort of thing by 1943, when the relevant bombers might have been flying (after some extra effort).

Weren't there Allied air bases in the Azores by 1943?

Would make an invasion difficult?

 

[EwenS]

The Allies moved into the Azores in Oct 1943 after Britain invoked the Anglo-Portuguese Alliance dating back to the 14th Century in Aug.

Operation Alacrity - Wikipedia

en.m.wikipedia.org

Edit. The Germans would have to be careful about upsetting Portugal by way of invasion of the Azores as after June 1941 mainland Portugal was its principal supplier of tungsten / wolfram needed mostly in the manufacture of industrial machine tools. Allied pressure brought that trade largely to an end in early / mid-1944.

 

[Tkdog]

A Doolittle scale raid (obviously not from a carrier) could have perhaps been done at great expense and to little gain. Any sustained campaign is really impossible. Even forecasting the weather at the target is beyond their capabilities.

 

[swampyankee]

In Maine? Bath Iron Works.

 

[tonycat77]

IIrc there were a couple of bases in New Jersey used to train and finish squadrons before deployment to ETO, I imagine they were on the table for air defense if push came to shove -- which it wouldn't given the lack of a suitable German bomber to do the mission.

A German air-strike upon the East Coast is something I regard as Wehraboo territory.

I believe any bomber attack that long ranged wouldn't pay off in terms of the cost of developing and building a fleet of cutting edge bombers until we had nukes to reduce the number of aircraft per sortie by a factor of 1000.
B-36 had engine problems that were infamous in SAC training, imagine it during a cross-atlantic flight into enemy territory, either germany or occupied europe, or flying across the pacific to the Urals and back?
Amerika bombers had barely the ordinance left and barely any defensive armament, even a flak blowing 100feet away and hitting one of the engines oil radiator would probably mean the entire loss of crew and aircraft, highly specialized and expensive crew trained in very long range flight.

 

[Thumpalumpacus]

I believe any bomber attack that long ranged wouldn't pay off in terms of the cost of developing and building a fleet of cutting edge bombers until we had nukes to reduce the number of aircraft per sortie by a factor of 1000.
B-36 had engine problems that were infamous in SAC training, imagine it during a cross-atlantic flight into enemy territory, either germany or occupied europe, or flying across the pacific to the Urals and back?
Amerika bombers had barely the ordinance left and barely any defensive armament, even a flak blowing 100feet away and hitting one of the engines oil radiator would probably mean the entire loss of crew and aircraft, highly specialized and expensive crew trained in very long range flight.

Which is why I regard it as sheer fantasy in an attempt to find a way for Germany to win WWII, i.e. "wehraboo".

 

[tonycat77]

Which is why I regard it as sheer fantasy in an attempt to find a way for Germany to win WWII, i.e. "wehraboo".

Would be nice to have them in limited production, any eventual mission would prove any bombing attacks to be completely useless, however they would be extremely useful for Berlin-Tokyo flights or very long distance ocean patrols for u-boats.
Imagine a flight of them with 100 mile radars flying from occupied france to the azores or west of the irish coast, into the convoy lanes.
A earlier TU-114.
Post war would be interesting, B-52s would never see that kind of service aside from a few experiments, but if they had the german example and the Soviet one, would be interesting to see.
Slap a huge naval radar on it's nose, and load it up with harpoons or torpedos, probably would make the Pacific fleet into a sub-only force in a couple of sorties...

 

[SaparotRob]

Didn't the Allies already have a bunch of functional long range bombers and maritime patrol aircraft? I never really checked out the Amerika Bomber. Was it longer ranged than the Martin Mariner ( which had the advantage of actually being produced and flown)? The U.S. did have a couple of "Berlin Bomber" designs which, like the Amerika Bomber, weren't very good either. Does it matter? U.S. aircraft design path wouldn't have changed its design path, IMHO.

 

[GrauGeist]

Didn't the Allies already have a bunch of functional long range bombers and maritime patrol aircraft? I never really checked out the Amerika Bomber. Was it longer ranged than the Martin Mariner ( which had the advantage of actually being produced and flown)? The U.S. did have a couple of "Berlin Bomber" designs which, like the Amerika Bomber, weren't very good either. Does it matter? U.S. aircraft design path wouldn't have changed its design path, IMHO.

The U.S. had the B-19 (though a one-off), which wad a result of the USAAC's prewar XLRB project.
Otherwise, no, nothing that could cross the Atlantic and bomb Germany at the start of the war.
The B-29 and B-36 were actually the result of the Army needing something to bomb Germany in the event that Britain fell.

 

[Thumpalumpacus]

Would be nice to have them in limited production, any eventual mission would prove any bombing attacks to be completely useless, however they would be extremely useful for Berlin-Tokyo flights or very long distance ocean patrols for u-boats.
Imagine a flight of them with 100 mile radars flying from occupied france to the azores or west of the irish coast, into the convoy lanes.
A earlier TU-114.
Post war would be interesting, B-52s would never see that kind of service aside from a few experiments, but if they had the german example and the Soviet one, would be interesting to see.
Slap a huge naval radar on it's nose, and load it up with harpoons or torpedos, probably would make the Pacific fleet into a sub-only force in a couple of sorties...

I wouldn't want to fly that Berlin-Tokyo mission.

Put them on the Azores, you'd probably see British F4Us flying against them?

As for post-war recon, perhaps ... but remember, jet fighters went from Gen1 to Gen3 between 1945 and 1960-ish.

 

[tonycat77]

I wouldn't want to fly that Berlin-Tokyo mission.

Put them on the Azores, you'd probably see British F4Us flying against them?

As for post-war recon, perhaps ... but remember, jet fighters went from Gen1 to Gen3 between 1945 and 1960-ish.

I meant it that it's naval role would probably inspire the b-52s, V-bombers to be adopted for naval ops like patrol or antiship missions like the tu-95 was.
Berlin-tokyo was possible, several flights were done with far inferior planes

Soviets didn't have the planes, guns or radars in either significant numbers or able to intercept a design that would be similar in performance to a b-29.

 

[nuuumannn]

The Germans flew an Fw 200 Condor passenger aircraft from Berlin Staaken to New York before the war, but that was a friendly flight. The real question regarding whether or not the Germans could do this remains what would they do once they could reach the USA? Dropping a handful of bombs on an industrial area? What's that going to do in the context of one aircraft, one raid? The only way to make something count like that is continuous raids, a campaign with many aircraft over time. This is something Germany could not do. Regardless, even if there was only one raid performed by one aircraft, the main takeaway from it would be increased and improved air defences on the US coast and into Canada and a push for retaliation against Germany.