VC-27 combat with Tojos and Vals 25 October 1944

[Keith1967]

"In the afternoon, the Japanese sent a formation of Aichi D3A "Val" to attack the US Navy escort carriers. The army Ki-44 "Tojo" squadron escorted navy bombers. However, a patrol of "Saints" (VC-27), commanded by Ralph Elliott, encountered the enemy formation. In a fierce fight, the Wildcat pilots massacred the Japanese escort, reporting shooting down eight Ki-44s. Ralph Elliott claimed three "Tojo's", two of which were confirmed after his return to the carrier and one probable. The destruction of the fighter squadron forced Aichi "Val" to retreat and drop their bombs into the sea and return to base. The Americans lost only one pilot missing in combat, but the Wildcats were shot up badly, that five of them had to be written off."

I assume that actually this squadron encountered Vals escorted by Zekes, or less likely Oscars/Tojos escorting Sonias? The actual casualties are probably irrelevant but that five Wildcats were s/o indicates the Japanese pilots were not badly trained. Can anyone shed light on the IJN or IAAF units involved?

regards

Keith

 

[Barrett]

Are you familiar with J-Aircraft.com? Lots of skookum guys there. Will see if I can post this link.

Break-break

I was slightly acquainted with Ralph Elliott, the FM-2 top scorer. He named his Wildcat "Baldy" for his dog, though like most carrier pilots he usually flew what was "spotted" for him on deck. He'd been a tactics instructor (maybe Corpus Christi) and was such a tough dogfighter that he became known as "Tojo."

 

[GreenKnight121]

"In the afternoon, the Japanese sent a formation of Aichi D3A "Val" to attack the US Navy escort carriers. The army Ki-44 "Tojo" squadron escorted navy bombers. However, a patrol of "Saints" 9VC-27), commanded by Ralph Elliott, encountered the enemy formation. In a fierce fight, the Wildcat pilots massacred the Japanese escort, reporting shooting down eight Ki-44s. Ralph Elliott claimed three "Tojo's", two of which were confirmed after his return to the carrier and one probable. The destruction of the fighter squadron forced Aichi "Val" to retreat and drop their bombs into the sea and return to base. The Americans lost only one pilot missing in combat, but the Wildcats were shot up badly, that five of them had to be written off."

I assume that actually this squadron encountered Vals escorted by Zekes, or less likely Oscars/Tojos escorting Sonias? The actual casualties are probably irrelevant but that five Wildcats were s/o indicates the Japanese pilots were not badly trained. Can anyone shed light on the IJN or IAAF units involved?

regards

Keith

The Japanese Army never operated "Zekes" - Zeros.
So yes, Oscars or Tojos (both operated by the Japanese Army in great numbers).

Assuming, of course, they were operating from land - as would be nearly certain in October 1944 as the IJN had virtually no operational carriers at that point in the war.

 

[GrauGeist]

Elliot and his FM-2 encountered land-based Japanese elements during that battle (which was one of many clashes during the battle of Leyte Gulf).

VC-27 was operating from USS Savo Island (CVE-78) at the time.

 

[Keith1967]

While I appreciate the responses I feel my question was a simple one. So let's be clear. I know that the IJAAF operated Oscars and Tojos. I also know the IJNAF operated Zeros. I also know that very few carrier based aircraft were available to the IJNAF at this time. My question is were these aircraft encountered by VC-27 Japanese Navy or Army? The question is based on my assumption that Navy aircraft did not escort Army aircraft or vice-versa.

Many thanks Barrett for the link. I have tried several times to access J-Aircraft but because a while ago I tried to create an account and it failed I am now unable to complete registration because I still use the same e-mail address. I suspect this should lead me to create a brand new e-mail address just for J-aircraft but until now it's been too much trouble. Especially when this site has so many experts on the subject.

As I opine in the original enquiry I suspect the FM-2 pilots encountered Zeroes not Tojos or Oscars. I did consider it was an IJAAF formation with Oscars and Nates but the latter seemed as unlikely as Sonias (the only other fixed undercarriage aircraft in IJAAF service in sufficient numbers).

I might also suggest the high speed Tojo interceptor would not be a very good escort fighter in any situation.

best regards

Keith

 

[GrauGeist]

My question is were these aircraft encountered by VC-27 Japanese Navy or Army? The question is based on my assumption that Navy aircraft did not escort Army aircraft or vice-versa.

VC-27 encountered both IJN and IJA aircraft.

While the Japanese Army and Navy did have a long history of rivalry and refusing to cooperate, there were quite a few instances where they did actually supported each other.

The IJA came to the aid of the Navy (though reluctantly at first) in the Solomons and the Army and Navy did have combined air operations, for example.

In the case mentioned in the original post, VC-27 did encounter Army fighters that were escorting Navy bombers that were defending the Philippines against Allied invasion.

 

[R Leonard]

Quick and dirty, for VC-27 on 25 October 1944,, Frank Olynyk recorded (times approximate):

0830 - ENS Thomas Sterling Mackie, FM-2 - 0.5 Ki-43 damaged, 10-50N,124-40E
0830 - ENS Andrew Tone Price, FM-2 - 0.5 Ki-43 damaged, 10-50N,124-40E
0850 - LCDR Percival William Jackson, FM-2 - 1 E13A credited, 11-05N,126-30E
1215 - Noel J Bussey, AMM2c, TBM (gunner) - 1 E13A damaged, 11-30N,126-00E
1215 - ENS Bertram Lee Lewis Jr, TBM - 1 E13A damaged, 11-30N,126-00E
1215 - LTJG John Mark Yeaman, TBM - 1 E13A credited, 11-30N,126-00E
1725 - LTJG George Howard Davidson, FM-2 - 1 Ki-44 credited, 40 mi, 340 deg from 11-25N,127-30E
1725 - LT Ralph Earle Elliott Jr, FM-2 - 2 Ki-44 credited, 40 mi, 340 deg from 11-25N,127-30E
1725 - ENS Andrew Tone Price, FM-2 - 1 Ki-44 credited, 40 mi, 340 deg from 11-25N,127-30E
1725 - LT John Turner Ross Jr, FM-2 - 1 Ki-44 credited, 40 mi, 340 deg from 11-25N,127-30E
1725 - ENS Wilton Odell Stubbs, FM-2 - 2 Ki-44 credited, 40 mi, 340 deg from 11-25N,127-30E
1725 - ENS August Frederick Uthoff, FM-2 - 1 Ki-44 damaged, 40 mi, 340 deg from 11-25N,127-30E
1725 - ENS Charles Melvin Vehorn, FM-2 - 1 Ki-44 credited, 40 mi, 340 deg from 11-25N,127-30E

Looks like fighter v fighter was FMs v various IJAAF types, Ki-43s in the morning and Ki-44s in the afternoon.

 

[Keith1967]

Cheers Rich. The maximum range for the Ki-44 was 750 miles (1000 miles with drop tanks). How far were the Japanese fighters from their nearest base when they encountered VC-27? The distance from Army airfields looks considerable.

best regards

K

 

[Keith1967]

Cheers Rich. The maximum range for the Ki-44 was 750 miles (1000 miles with drop tanks). How far were the Japanese fighters from their nearest base when they encountered VC-27? The distance from Army airfields looks considerable.

best regards

K

i have read that in fact the radius of action on internal fuel tanks was only 195 miles. The Zero according to Lundstrom was 300 miles from a carrier and 500 miles from a land base.

 

[Keith1967]

i have read that in fact the radius of action on internal fuel tanks was only 195 miles. The Zero according to Lundstrom was 300 miles from a carrier and 500 miles from a land base.

I did look at my copy of "Japanese Army Fighter Aces" and looking at the admittedly incomplete casualty listings for JAAF pilots none were flying "Shokis" but the 1st and 52nd Sentais were flying Ki-84 "Hayate" and both lost pilots including the 1st Sentai commander Capt Kasugai Toshiro over Ormoc Bay. Other known pilot losses were incurred by "Oscar" and "Tony" sentais. Incidentally the 1st sentai had been employed escorting army bombers the day before. Perhaps the VC-27 pilots recognised that their opponents were not "Oscars" and instead opted for another known type of fighter.

K

 

[Keith1967]

More points. No Tojo sentais were operating from the Phillippines at this time. Both the 29th and 246th would arrive but no see action before November. Also only VC-27 (twelve claims) and VC-20 (two claims) of all the CVE squadrons would identify victories over "Tojo" in these two days. Not sure about the Hellcat squadrons but in the end there seems the Tojo/Shoki was absent. However the (as yet unidentified) "Frank" was not.

K

 

[R Leonard]

Then I guess I will leave you to your endeavors.

 

[GrauGeist]

More points. No Tojo sentais were operating from the Phillippines at this time. Both the 29th and 246th would arrive but no see action before November. Also only VC-27 (twelve claims) and VC-20 (two claims) of all the CVE squadrons would identify victories over "Tojo" in these two days. Not sure about the Hellcat squadrons but in the end there seems the Tojo/Shoki was absent. However the (as yet unidentified) "Frank" was not.

K

The 29th Sentai was stationed there from September 1944 onward.
They had KI-44s based at Clark and KI-84s based at Murphy Field.

 

[Keith1967]

Indeed, a fair point, but I do not believe they were in action against the US Fleet during the battle of Leyte Gulf.

"In August 1944 in response to an increased tempo of operations in China the main force of the unit (29th Sentai) was despatched there, arriving at Nanjing on the 27th of that month with about 20 aircraft and being deployed to Wuchang. It was then assigned to the air defence protection of traffic on the Yangtze River and Army supply lines, with little opportunity for aerial combat. The unit's only major combat in China occurred over Ertaokou (Kiukiang) on 7 October 1944 when it lost two of five aircraft scrambled in response to an incursion by P-40s of the 74th FS. When Formosa came under attack from US carrier forces from 10-12 October the loss of aircraft, including a Ki-44 from the 29th Sentai cadre piloted by WO Ryotaku Hase, prompted the return of the China detachment on the 18th of the month. From 8 November 1944 the unit served in the Philippines from main and auxiliary airfields at Zablan (Murphy Field) near Manila with about 20 Ki-44 where it suffered heavy losses with 15 pilots killed in action, including Capt Tsuchihashi the newly appointed Sentai commander who fell in combat on 7 December 1944. On 13 November the unit was heavily engaged with USN carrier aircraft raiding across the Manila area, claiming nine enemy aircraft destroyed and two probables for the loss of six aircraft and four pilots which included the 3rd Chutai leader Lt Tokuji Chiji-iwa."

Also there's no mention anywhere I can find of losses in late October 1944. Also when the Tojos begin operations from Murphy Field they seem to be in action over the islands rather than heading out to sea as escorts to bombing raids. Lots of possibilities and happy to accept theories that go against the limited information I have.

Another point I would make is that VC-27 reported they were escorting fixed-undercarriage bombers. Possibly a misunderstanding and these were separate independent formations. These bombers may be Aichi Vals mounting their own attack.

K

 

[taly01]

There were numerous air reinforcements navy and army rushed to PI during late 44, which makes it hard to pinpoint where they actually based. The whole PI air campaign for the Japanese side is poorly recorded and confusing to follow, as it was a battle of annihilation conducted at high intensity.

The 2nd Naval Air Fleet that arrived in october 1944 was 200x A6M, 100x N1K1-J, 55x G4M, 50x P1Y, 15x D4Y, 20x J1N-S, 10x C6N and a few J2M3............No D3A Val in this lot. The PI plan was that Negros was mostly a JAAF area while JNAF was mostly on Luzon (....mostly...) Negros was mostly Ki43 and Ki84, although I saw Ki-61 mentioned. I doubt Ki44 was on Negros. The Ki43 were greatly used as fighter bombers in leyte 44, as the Ki84 was a superiour fighter.

My guess on your action of 25 oct 44 is it was Ki43 escorting Ki51, or some D3A either by accident or plan.

P.S. From that kill list Leonard posted of over the gulf it is possible Ki84 was misidentified as Ki44 as Ki84 was a new type for US to face.

 

[Keith1967]

Interesting. No "Vals". That leaves us with "Sonias" (unlikely -large formations of these are rare, they are attack bombers or photo-recce aircraft, but perhaps one ot two as guides) or another fixed gear aircraft. "Nates" (training aircraft used as last-ditch bombers)? Only eight "Vals" are claimed at various times by six CVE Squadrons, none claiming more than two. It does not explain VC-27 claiming a formation (no numbers given - but I assume at least six?). I am focussing on FM-2 squadrons but perhaps Hellcats claimed several more?

 

[Barrett]

From J-Aircraft.com via the ever helpful Sam Tagaya:

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This just a quick look at Hata & Izawa (the expanded Japanese edition published in 2010). As you know well, 24 and 25 October 1944 was the climax of the Battle of Leyte Gulf. There were numerous air combats east of the Philippines during the course of these two days. But the action that best fits that of Lt. Elliot and VC-27 in the afternoon of 25 October would appear to be one involving Zekes and Vals that took off ftom Legaspi at 1500 JST. This was a composite formation of Zeros from more than one unit, but Fighter Hikotai 304 of 203 Kokutai was heavily involved. It fielded 11 Zeros out of 35 total and lost 4. Total Japanese losses were 6 Zeros and 2 Vals. The Japanese claimed 6 F6Fs shot down and 2 probables. No doubt the 5 FM-2s that returned to their carrier, but subsequently written off, were included among the Japanese claims. The Zeros were escorting 23 Vals from 701 Kokutai. As you know, misidentification of e/a was universal during the war. So the Americans reported Tojos. Mis-ID of FM-2s as F6Fs was widespread on the Japanese side during '44 - '45 in the P.I. The Japanese formation reported encountering some 35 F6Fs. So I wonder whether there were other units besides VC-27 involved in this fight?

 

[Keith1967]

From J-Aircraft.com via the ever helpful Sam Tagaya:

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This just a quick look at Hata & Izawa (the expanded Japanese edition published in 2010). As you know well, 24 and 25 October 1944 was the climax of the Battle of Leyte Gulf. There were numerous air combats east of the Philippines during the course of these two days. But the action that best fits that of Lt. Elliot and VC-27 in the afternoon of 25 October would appear to be one involving Zekes and Vals that took off ftom Legaspi at 1500 JST. This was a composite formation of Zeros from more than one unit, but Fighter Hikotai 304 of 203 Kokutai was heavily involved. It fielded 11 Zeros out of 35 total and lost 4. Total Japanese losses were 6 Zeros and 2 Vals. The Japanese claimed 6 F6Fs shot down and 2 probables. No doubt the 5 FM-2s that returned to their carrier, but subsequently written off, were included among the Japanese claims. The Zeros were escorting 23 Vals from 701 Kokutai. As you know, misidentification of e/a was universal during the war. So the Americans reported Tojos. Mis-ID of FM-2s as F6Fs was widespread on the Japanese side during '44 - '45 in the P.I. The Japanese formation reported encountering some 35 F6Fs. So I wonder whether there were other units besides VC-27 involved in this fight?

Excellent! Many thanks Barrett.

Keith

 

[Keith1967]

Excellent! Many thanks Barrett.

Keith

Trying to login to J-aircraft again. Crossing my fingers.

 

[AerialTorpedoDude69]

There were numerous air reinforcements navy and army rushed to PI during late 44, which makes it hard to pinpoint where they actually based. The whole PI air campaign for the Japanese side is poorly recorded and confusing to follow, as it was a battle of annihilation conducted at high intensity.

The 2nd Naval Air Fleet that arrived in october 1944 was 200x A6M, 100x N1K1-J, 55x G4M, 50x P1Y, 15x D4Y, 20x J1N-S, 10x C6N and a few J2M3............No D3A Val in this lot. The PI plan was that Negros was mostly a JAAF area while JNAF was mostly on Luzon (....mostly...) Negros was mostly Ki43 and Ki84, although I saw Ki-61 mentioned. I doubt Ki44 was on Negros. The Ki43 were greatly used as fighter bombers in leyte 44, as the Ki84 was a superiour fighter.

My guess on your action of 25 oct 44 is it was Ki43 escorting Ki51, or some D3A either by accident or plan.

P.S. From that kill list Leonard posted of over the gulf it is possible Ki84 was misidentified as Ki44 as Ki84 was a new type for US to face.

Thanks for posting the unit strength, I'm very interested in unit strengths in the Fall of 1944 in the Philippines.

So in regard to your question, I have never heard of the IJA escorting IJN bombers or vice-versa. There were operations in which they cooperated but they never practiced formation flying together as far as I know. This is almost certainly a case of misidentified aircraft, given how similar some Japanese aircraft appeared.

There's a lot we don't know. Supposedly, the very first (unofficial) combat encounter between Hellcats and the George reported by the US Navy was in November of 1944 but these were reported as Tojos. The IJN had been building up N1K1-Js (Georges) beginning at Cebu and later Luzon airfield much earlier. The fighter had been, more or less, ready since 1943, although it wasn't deployed to forward air bases because of a program of modifications. One modification was to add underwing gondolas carrying a 20mm cannon to each wing. This modification resulted in a few Allied pilots misidentifying the craft as having fixed landing gear in some cases. Although, typically, Allied pilots thought it was bombs or drop tanks. Also, the George was mostly mistaken as a Tojo, P-47, Hellcat, or some other aircraft, not as a Val.

It would help to know precisely where VC-27 encountered these aircraft because as they were flying Wildcats, they were probably not intended to encounter large numbers of enemy aircraft, unless I'm mistaken about the FM-2's role as a secondary/reserve fighter in 1944. The N1K1-J's top speed (363 MPH military power, is somewhere around 378 MPH with WEP) was substantially faster than the FM-2 except at the highest altitudes due to the multi-stage supercharger in the FM-2). I think pilots would have noticed a fighter aircraft that was that much faster.

My guess is that VC-27 encountered a mixed formation of Japanese navy aircraft, likely D4Y, D3A, A6M5, and possibly N1K1-J. It's notable that N1K1-J were flying in quantity in Oct '44, but because it was a previously unknown aircraft of an unusual configuration, it was misidentified for a very long time.

EDIT: One more thing, many aviation buffs already know about the George MK. I's defective telescoping landing gear. However, I believe that early models suffered from a defect where the hydraulics would fail mid flight and the landing gear would drop down. If this was October of 1944, this would have been the George's first combat in the Philippines and it probably would have been the combat where they found this out about the plane. I'm having difficulty finding a source for this unfortunately but will keep trying. If it's true, then pilots might think the aircraft had fixed landing gear.

EDIT: I forgot to K Keith1967