Warbird Abuse?

[GregP]

The aerobatic jet teams trim nose down because it is MUCH smoother to slack off or add onto back pressure than it is to pull and then push on the stick. So the reason is 100% that it is smoother and the formation looks better with much less moving around, especially up and down out of phase, in formation.

 

[pbehn]

The aerobatic jet teams trim nose down because it is MUCH smoother to slack off or add onto back pressure than it is to pull and then push on the stick. So the reason is 100% that it is smoother and the formation looks better with much less moving around, especially up and down out of phase, in formation.

Thanks, makes sense they are doing different manouvers in different aircraft at different heights.

 

[GregP]

If you ever see formation flights that are NOT aerobatic teams, you'll see them moving up and down out of phase, not much, but it is VERY noticeable. The jet teams experimented around and found that nose down was the best solution. The teams vary as to how MUCH nose down trim to apply. If I am not mistaken, the technique was pioneered by the Blue Angels in the US Navy and the Sabre Dancers in the USAF and subsequently adopted by other jets teams.

 

[pbehn]

If you ever see formation flights that are NOT aerobatic teams, you'll see them moving up and odwn out of phase, not much, but it is VERY noticeable. The jet teams experimented around and found that nose down was the best solution. The teams vary as to how MUCH nose down trim to apply. If I am not mistaken, the technique was pioneered by the Blue Angels in the US Navy and the Sabre Dancers in the USAF and subsequently adopted by other jets teams.

was brought up watching the Red Arrows, saw them many times. On a TV when they are forming up there is a bit of "vertical* adjustment at the start then it all smooths out. By that they sort of move up and down a bit for a second or two and then fly as one with the guy they form up on, obviously adjusting the trim. Nnw I know what they are/were doing. My question was a misunderstanding on my side, I thought you meant a military Pilot in a P51 would trim nose down Now I understand ..Thanks for the info.

also with the red arrows in mind they have to keep out of the jet wash i think so that would be the same as the ground while in formation?

 

[GregP]

Particularly when they were flying Gnats. We have one of the former Red Arrow Gnats at Chino and it flies semi-regularly. Seems to have very good acceleration and good vertical capability. It is a very beat little plane and about the only thing it lacks is range.

The Red Arrows are definitely one of the better jet teams. Wish I could see them more often.

 

[GregP]

Particularly when they were flying Gnats. We have one of the former Red Arrow Gnats at Chino and it flies semi-regularly. Seems to have very good acceleration and good vertical capability. It is a very neat little plane and about the only thing it lacks is range.

The Red Arrows are definitely one of the better jet teams. Wish I could see them more often.

Here's a short of the late, great Ray Hanna ...


View: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ljofhhdDGPo

 

[pbehn]

Particularly when they were flying Gnats. We have one of the former Red Arrow Gnats at Chino and it flies semi-regularly. Seems to have very good acceleration and good vertical capability. It is a very beat little plane and about the only thing it lacks is range.

The Red Arrows are definitely one of the better jet teams. Wish I could see them more often.

Here's a short of the late, great Ray Hanna ...





View: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ljofhhdDGPo

View: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jqxf_9oliGg

how I remember the Red Arrows strangely at the start it shows them in hawks but the rest is in Gnats, a plane that didnt need any range it did air displays.

 

[GregP]

Here's one you don't see very often. It's the Horsemen flying two different kinds of aircraft but all with the mighty R-2800 installed. The was NAS Oceana, Virginia Beach.


View: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YhNJgPbnY84

Since this is a WWII site, I thought I'd post some relevant aircraft being demonstrated.

 

[pbehn]

Great video, they are beast of the field. how easy or hard is it to syncronise speed, in a turn the outside plane must go a little faster and the inside a little slower? just pracice or is that difficult?

 

[GregP]

Since they have very similar engines, props, and drag characteristics, my bet is speed is not difficult to synchronize. When aerobatic teams first started flying, it was widely believed they could not DO the diamond formation. Once in the air, it proved to be not all that difficult with practice. I've seen the Horsemen perform with 2 P-51's, 3 P-51's, 3 Bearcats, 2 Bearcats and 1 Corsair, 2 P-51's and 1 P-38, and 3 F-86's.

They look smooth and great in all of these mounts.

 

[pbehn]

I guess it becomes second nature, but they are controlling a 2000HP engine to withing +/- just a few HP.


Thanks for all the info GregP

 

[GregP]

You are welcome. It didn't seem like all that much info but, then again, I tend to hear guys who fly WWII planes talking freely among themselves at the museum. I suppose some of it IS rather arcane information that doesn't usually float around.

FlyboyJ, Drgondog, and Biff are just a few guys who know. There are many more in here.

Maybe I'm just the blabbermouth ... anyway, WWII aircraft are my passion. I only wish I had one to fly on a regular basis.

 

[nuuumannn]

Since we are on the subject of warbirds, I thought you might want to see the pics I took of the P-38 California Cutie that Hoof Proudfoot was killed in at Flying Legends Duxford 1996. The pictures are pretty grainy because they are scanned from prints.

Parked in the flight line. You can see some of the aircraft in the background that the Lightning took out.

Taken about 15 - 20 minutes before the aircraft met its end. I was trying to get its unique shadow on the tarmac underneath it, but the weather was pretty grey that day.

 

[GregP]

Great pics Nuuumannn! Thanks for posting them!

I wish he'd have pulled up to 20° nose up before rolling, especially since he was going to do at least 2 rolls and the P-38 doesn't have much in the way of inverted push-up capability in the middle of the roll.

 

[nuuumannn]

There was some speculation he might have blacked out at the controls sometime during the roll manoeuvres, but how can you substantiate that?

 

[GregP]

Can't. Even if he hadn't blacked out, the P-38 does NOT push up when inverted very well.

It's characteristic of the airframe ... and if he was flying aerobatics in it, he would KNOW that. I can only wonder what he was thinking when he initiated the roll.

If you Google Steve Hinton P-38 aerobatics, you won't see ANY roll at low level without a pull-up first. Sort of required unless you have a death wish.

 

[GregP]

Here's one you don't see every day!

[video]http://leavingterrafirma.com/aircraft/trimotor-aerobatics/[/video]

Aerobatics in a Ford Trimotor.

 

[BiffF15]

Great video, they are beast of the field. how easy or hard is it to syncronise speed, in a turn the outside plane must go a little faster and the inside a little slower? just pracice or is that difficult?

Pbehn,

That's an honest question. I remember thinking the same thing before I entered formation phase in T-37s. The answer is it's not difficult after a sortie or two.

If you are in traffic next to a Ferrari and want to drive in "formation" you just adjust your inputs to the gas pedal to parallel it. Same goes if it's a Pinto instead. Your car doesn't know what's next to it, just knows to deliver speed based on your gas pedal inputs. Planes are the same, they don't know what they are flying next to. I have flown close formation (fingertip in mil speak) with F-111s, F-16, Mig-29s, other F-15s, and more I'm probably forgetting.

What you do have to be cognizant of is not flying in a manner that exceeds the capability of your formation mate. An example would be leading a dissimilar aircraft back for a formation approach and flying slower than he can. We have the radio or hand signals to coordinate the speed in real life.

Cheers,
Biff

 

[pbehn]

Thanks Biff, I was sort of thinking if you are changing the throttle all the time with one hand you have no hands free for anything?

I am in Germany there are no speed limits on the Autobahns "forming up" with a Ferrari here isnt a good idea, frequently leads to a wipe out at high speed, here they do race on the autobahns ...madness at times.

 

[GrauGeist]

"forming up" with a car on the highway is much easier than forming up on another aircraft...especially one of a different type.

With a car, you're on a flat surface that eliminates several aspects: elevation, cross-wind/slipstream buffet (turbulence).

One the otherhand, at high-speeds on the highway, there is the risk of collision because of external conditions: animals crossing the roadway, oncoming traffic crossing over, debris on the roadway, etc. which you won't encounter in aircraft.

A Veyron can be easily paced by a Ferrari or a Hydndai or a VW bus, all depending on circumstances but dissimilar aircraft in formation presents special challenges, like in Heritage flights with a Spitfire, a P-40 and a modern combat jet for example. In like types (say like a formation of P-51Ds), they all have similar trim settings, throttle, pitch and so on, they can easily match the lead element and hold a nice formation.

But with a formation of different types, it takes different settings by each pilot to match the leader and bring the formation into order. Lots of work going on behind the scenes there!