Warbird Abuse?
- Thread starter GrauGeist
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Blue Yonder
Airman 1st Class
I had the privilege to see Glamorous Gal perform at the Geneseo Airshow several times in the years leading up to her landing accident...what spectacular flying with such a beautiful plane!
I've only done a couple of formation sorties, but what I had (and still have) trouble with is slowing the aircraft down when descending. invariably one aircraft will be 'slippery' while the other isn't, and when descending, this makes it hard for the trail aircraft to keep up.
Thanks Guys Graugeaist and gumbyk, I can see what you are saying, most times I have seen hugely dissimilar aircraft doing a fly past (jets and prop jobs) they do precicely that, just fly past.
I was being a little flippant about formng up, I drive an Audi A5 and if I "form up" with a Ferrari or Porsche 911 they genuinely do start racing, Ive been passed by a 911 on a wet autobahn he was doing 160MPH minimum, frequently seen stuffed into the barrier later I might add.
Interesting. Have just read the AAIB report on the accident here: Air Accidents Investigation: Lockheed 501731
The report states that the pilot had carried out a single roll during his display the day before, but not a double one. The conclusion is that the AAIB doesn't know what caused the accident: "It is known that the pilot was a very experienced display pilot and produced high quality, asthetically pleasing displays. There is no evidence to explain why the second part of the final manoeuvre in a less than optimum pitch attitude, which developed into a significant downward trajectory. The possibilty of a temporary restriction to the flying controls (especially the roll control) or some other form of distraction to the pilot, could not be dismissed."
The whole report is interesting reading.
GregP
Major
Hi Nuuumannn,
Thanks for posting that. I have never read the report before and don;t really know where to find British accident reports.
I can appreciate that he did ONE roll the day before and have no idea why he would elect to continue with rolls not practiced unless "something" was wrong ... physically or with the aircraft. Doesn't seem like a course of action that many airshow performers take on the spur of the moment.
I'll give it a thorough read.
Thanks for posting that. I have never read the report before and don;t really know where to find British accident reports.
I can appreciate that he did ONE roll the day before and have no idea why he would elect to continue with rolls not practiced unless "something" was wrong ... physically or with the aircraft. Doesn't seem like a course of action that many airshow performers take on the spur of the moment.
I'll give it a thorough read.
GregP
Major
Here's an interesting video if you have never watched unpowered slats work. This is Steve Hinton in our F-86F Sabre and there are plenty of views of the slats working, including right at the end when he lands at Thermal, California. The slats are free and ride in tracks with ball bearings and move only when the airflow pulls them out or pushed them in.
View: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=K54Ri_KQU4g
If you haven't seen unpowered slats before, they come out when the airflow starts to separate and swirls backward toward the leading edge. The slot that opens up restores the airflow and keep it attached to the rest of the wing.
View: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=K54Ri_KQU4g
If you haven't seen unpowered slats before, they come out when the airflow starts to separate and swirls backward toward the leading edge. The slot that opens up restores the airflow and keep it attached to the rest of the wing.
Greg, the British accident reports can be found on that site. the organisation is the Air Accident Investigation Bureau (AAIB). Cool vids, by the way.
Pilot error was most likely the cause, so why would he do it? Like you say, Aaron, unintentional. Could he have blacked out whilst in the middle of the first roll or before he was to level the wings? That's a theory I heard at the time.
Pilot error was most likely the cause, so why would he do it? Like you say, Aaron, unintentional. Could he have blacked out whilst in the middle of the first roll or before he was to level the wings? That's a theory I heard at the time.
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Aileron rolls aren't high-g manoeuvres. Carried out properly (initiated with a nose pitch-up) there isn't even any negative g. Unless there was a pre-existing medical condition, I can't see any reason for him to have blacked out.
The other thing that raised an eyebrow was the amount of extra metal stuff he had in the cockpit. The first thing I was taught with aero's "Empty cockpit, and absolutely no non-deformable items" That means no metal pens, metal knee-boards, etc. I see that there were no witness marks on any recovered items, so this probably wasn't a cause, but if something came loose, who knows what happened...
Has anyone got any video of his earlier routines?
The other thing that raised an eyebrow was the amount of extra metal stuff he had in the cockpit. The first thing I was taught with aero's "Empty cockpit, and absolutely no non-deformable items" That means no metal pens, metal knee-boards, etc. I see that there were no witness marks on any recovered items, so this probably wasn't a cause, but if something came loose, who knows what happened...
Has anyone got any video of his earlier routines?
Pbehn,
When you are flying formation you are moving the stick throttle (and in some aircraft) and rudder all the time. It's a constant correction process, and the more the lead is changing his parameters the more the wingman / wingmen are working. It becomes second nature after awhile. When flying instrument meterological conditions (in the weather), the flight lead doesn't go over 30 degrees of bank, nor do any rough or abrupt maneuvers. Radio changes under these conditions are fairly easy (as long as the lead is smooth), however under more difficult conditions the flight lead will call for a radio change and the wingman will "catch up" when able. Fighters have two radios and the inter-flight comm is maintained via the "second" radio.
The "contract" is pretty clearly set, and in all the aircraft I have flown formation with it remains similar. The flight lead never uses all his power on a formation takeoff, climb out, or cruise. He nevers uses idle in the descent or landing. If the flight leads aircraft is outperforming his wingmans, then the wingman will usually ask lead to, "give me one", if the situation requires it.
As for flying dissimilar formation the biggest caveat is for the lead aircraft not to maneuver outside the capability of any of his wingmen. As long as that doesn't happen you can fly pretty much any aircraft together. Case in point is I have seen a KC-10 "lead" 4 F-16's, 3 F-15's and one F-14. All in fingertip.
Love the autobahn, and the bar is set a bit higher in your country on what is expected of drivers. And stupidity knows no limits.
Cheers,
Biff
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Thanks Biff that's clear obviously much more to it than you see from the outside looking in, they look like rich mens toys but are way to serious for that I think.
I have never flown but have raced motor cycles, in practice and qualifying its easy to lap at close to class record pace without having "a moment" even touching some times, but that is only with a guy you know and respect, nightmare scenario is coming up to lap a novice in the last lap of a race, he turns his head to see you are coming, then you have no idea what happens next, he sticks to a normal line or tries to let you past on the inside or the outside. It only happened once to me but jeeeez I wont forget it.
I am a Brit but live in Germany, in my opinion the Germans are the best trained drivers in Europe, problem is they are not quite as good as they think they are. You see guys in Ferraris Porsches and big BMWs Mercs and Audis of all types really going for it like they are Sebastian Vettel, except I know Mr Vettel would never pass a line of trucks at close to 200MPH ...its madness, they do it in the dark too.
Pbehn,
Formation flying sounds similar to racing bikes, and will generally work out well as long as someone doesn't do anything unpredictable.
As for passing a line of trucks at 200mph, Charles Darwin always speaks of those people in the past tense (they remove themselves from the gene pool)...
Cheers,
Biff
- Thread starter
- #95
GrauGeist
Generalfeldmarschall zur Luftschiff Abteilung
I have raced automobiles on racetracks and have rarely had any serious incidents. Drafting another car at speeds over 150 miles an hour at distances of less than a few feet is done almost without thought, but on an open road (highway, street, autobahn) with random motorists always leaves a massive element of chance.
It was a year ago that I was hit headon by another motorist who had suffered a diabetic blackout. There is always that random chance that something will go terribly wrong.
That's another reason why I enjoy flying. To the average person, flying seems scary but to me, it's far safer than driving to the grocery store...
It was a year ago that I was hit headon by another motorist who had suffered a diabetic blackout. There is always that random chance that something will go terribly wrong.
That's another reason why I enjoy flying. To the average person, flying seems scary but to me, it's far safer than driving to the grocery store...
I had a Japanese colleague who was terrified of flying, I helpfully explained (I thought) that it is only the last 2 centimeters that hurts. He wasnt impressed.
FLYBOYJ
"THE GREAT GAZOO"
Great info Biff!
I've done formation flying in light GA aircraft (Cessna 150s, 172s and Cherokees) and in L29s and L39s. I found the jets more challenging as the ones we flew took a bit to spool up and if you let the jet get ahead of you you're doing a lot of catch up, sometimes over correcting and ending up all over the place. In GA aircraft, especially those with fixed landing gear we would line up on the mains and place the nose landing gear behind the mains so you couldn't see it and then close in, all this at about 90 knots. We would have a briefing prior to the flight and plan and egress on the call "knock it off" should something get out of whack. Never had any issues or dangerous situations arise, my former roommate and I used to do two ship formation take offs in Cessna 150s, lots of fun!
I've done formation flying in light GA aircraft (Cessna 150s, 172s and Cherokees) and in L29s and L39s. I found the jets more challenging as the ones we flew took a bit to spool up and if you let the jet get ahead of you you're doing a lot of catch up, sometimes over correcting and ending up all over the place. In GA aircraft, especially those with fixed landing gear we would line up on the mains and place the nose landing gear behind the mains so you couldn't see it and then close in, all this at about 90 knots. We would have a briefing prior to the flight and plan and egress on the call "knock it off" should something get out of whack. Never had any issues or dangerous situations arise, my former roommate and I used to do two ship formation take offs in Cessna 150s, lots of fun!
GregP
Major
The biggest problem I had when trying formation with C-150's for the first time was the fact that the guy in the lead usually didn't allow for the second plane's reaction time and made his turns too quickly. After he turned in front of me twice I stopped getting anywhere close to him. Later, once I found someone who was a bit more practiced at formation flying, we had a good time with it.
It's nice when the leader tells you if he is climbing or descending so you can lean or richen the engine a bit every once in awhile.
It's nice when the leader tells you if he is climbing or descending so you can lean or richen the engine a bit every once in awhile.
FLYBOYJ
"THE GREAT GAZOO"
We would put the slowest plane (or the most experienced guy) flying lead, no more than 10 degree bank angles and all changes in heading more than 10 degrees announced.
GregP
Major
We settled on 10 - 15° of bank and announced all turns and altitude changes. Then we switched to C-172's and the cruise speed skyrocketed by 10 knots or so. I think it was Mach 0.17, if I recall correctly.
The guy at the flight service station laughed pretty hard when I filed for Mach 0.17 in a Cessna. We had a laugh for about a minute and I corrected my speed to 110 knots. He remembered me the next time I filed a flight plan and laughed again.
The guy at the flight service station laughed pretty hard when I filed for Mach 0.17 in a Cessna. We had a laugh for about a minute and I corrected my speed to 110 knots. He remembered me the next time I filed a flight plan and laughed again.
