Was Super Phantom an attractive deal?

[Nodeo-Franvier]

Both Boeing and Israel have tried to make their own versions of Super Phantom centered around PW1120 engines.Would it have been an attractive F-15 substitute for those time?

 

[msxyz]

Well, it really depends on what the customers needed.

The F-4 was a very good 'jack of all trades': fast, decent manoeuvrability, could be loaded like a mule, good radar and an "additional" human brain to assist the pilot.

The F-15 was designed as the ultimate air superiority fighter; it can do other things for sure, but that's not the main selling point.

A F-4 with better engines is essentially still an F-4 in all the good and bad ways. It could have been a more serious threat to the commercial success of the Hornet, but not to the F-15

 

[Graeme]

Would it have been an attractive F-15 substitute for those time?

According to Mike Spick - in 1985, when there were around 2,700 Phantoms still serving the World's Air Forces - Yes.

 

[nuuumannn]

According to Mike Spick - in 1985, when there were around 2,700 Phantoms still serving the World's Air Forces - Yes.

Yup, with good reason. This is because the USA didn't want all those F-4s still in service with foreign operators being turned into a cheaper way of creating a high performance replacement for the F-4, because it wanted to sell F-15s to them.

I do recall that the sale of the F-15 to Israel negated the development of the Kurnass 2000, which was developed because Israel believed it couldn't afford to shop externally for an F-4 replacement. The official reason behind the Kurnass 2000's demise was put at the cost of refurbishing the Israeli Phantoms, but the deal to buy the F-15 was probably so good that Israel would have been foolish to ignore it. The same goes for the sale of F-16s to Israel with the development of the Lavi, which IAI wanted to build as a replacement to the A-4 and Kfir - IAI could have in effect marketed the Lavi as a cheap F-16 alternative had it been continued.

 

[Nodeo-Franvier]

Yup, with good reason. This is because the USA didn't want all those F-4s still in service with foreign operators being turned into a cheaper way of creating a high performance replacement for the F-4, because it wanted to sell F-15s to them.

I do recall that the sale of the F-15 to Israel negated the development of the Kurnass 2000, which was developed because Israel believed it couldn't afford to shop externally for an F-4 replacement. The official reason behind the Kurnass 2000's demise was put at the cost of refurbishing the Israeli Phantoms, but the deal to buy the F-15 was probably so good that Israel would have been foolish to ignore it. The same goes for the sale of F-16s to Israel with the development of the Lavi, which IAI wanted to build as a replacement to the A-4 and Kfir - IAI could have in effect marketed the Lavi as a cheap F-16 alternative had it been continued.

Then they sell the Lavi to the Chinese for extra profit and clout afterwards.

 

[GTX]

Would it have been an attractive F-15 substitute for those time?

Yes...unless you had access to/money for F-16s and/or F-15s...

 

[nuuumannn]

Then they sell the Lavi to the Chinese for extra profit and clout afterwards.

It's a rumour and an unsubstantiated one at that. Like the one that the JF-17 is based on the Mikoyan Izdelye I-33. The J-10 superficially looks like the Lavi, but that the Israelis assisted in its design is rumoured only.

 

[ODonovan]

From an article I read. I've seen others with similar information, so I'm pretty sure it's at least mostly accurate.

"The up-engined Phantom's performance was extraordinary, boosting the F-4E's thrust-to-weight ratio from .86 to 1.04. (A jet with a thrust-to-weight ratio exceeding of 1.0 or higher can fly straight up at a 90-degree angle and still accelerate.) As a result, the Super Phantom could climb 36 percent faster and sustain turns 15 percent faster which combined with wing slates. This put it on par with the fourth-generation F-15E Strike Eagle and could accelerate 27 percent faster, and take off with 20 percent less runway. Due to the engines' lighter weight and greater fuel efficiency, the Super Phantom could also fly considerably further."

I've also seen a couple sources which said the Phantom could supercruise, which the F-15 could not. The "Super Phantom" flew in April of '87. The F-15E didn't fly until December of '86, only four months prior. It would have certainly been a worthy competitor.


-Irish