Navalwarrior
Staff Sergeant
- 764
- Jun 17, 2018
Resp:
I guess the Mustang MkI and MkIA don't qualify, as their range got them to the German border while escorting Wellingtons. 1941?
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Resp:That was exactly what we needed. The only long range fighter we had was the Hurricane II with 2 x 45 IG drop tanks. We used them for close escort on our raids into France. The Spitfire Vb with its single 45 IG slipper had to drop it before entering the danger zone. They were top cover. So 12 squadrons of fighters would escort 1 Squadron of bombers. Obviously, there's withdrawal support too. Spitfire Vb's with 30 IG combat capable slipper tanks?
Resp:
I guess the Mustang MkI and MkIA don't qualify, as their range got them to the German border while escorting Wellingtons. 1941?
LW aircraft were picked up on radar and tracked before they crossed the channel, the ground controllers kept the planes on the ground until the raids bearing and then possible target were established, only after that were the fighters ordered up because they didn't have the fuel to chase them if they got it wrong. The Spitfire sacrificed fuel for performance based on the power available at the time, under 1,000hp, by 1941 it had another 300-400HP available and MkII PR Spits had been using 30G rear 20G underseat tanks for 12 months by that time.
The channel is 20 miles wide at it narrowest. Chain home had an effective range of 80 miles. That gives you a 1/2 hour to pick up the enemy raid, track it to determine its course and intercept it. If you guess before you have the information you don't make the interception. Look at how poorly the Japanese and Americans performed in the carrier battles of 1942. They had the advantage of knowing exactly where the enemy would attack they didn't have to determine the target.LW aircraft were picked up on radar and tracked before they crossed the channel, the ground controllers kept the planes on the ground until the raids bearing and then possible target were established, only after that were the fighters ordered up because they didn't have the fuel to chase them if they got it wrong. The Spitfire sacrificed fuel for performance based on the power available at the time, under 1,000hp, by 1941 it had another 300-400HP available and MkII PR Spits had been using 30G rear 20G underseat tanks for 12 months by that time.
There were Hurricanes sent to France with them. The point is that is what the plane was originally designed around, once it is designed and war is declared it isn't easy to change. They may have wanted to put another 100 gallons inside but there is nowhere to put it. Between the declaration of war and 16 August 1940 RAF fighters were transformed with two pitch and then constant speed plus 100 octane fuel but that doesn't mean you can go back to the drawing board and produce a new fighter overnight. The P-51 was designed just a short time later than the Spitfire but an age in design terms, it was a much more advanced design but Mitchell couldn't win a contract designing it, with the engines fuel and props available in 1936 it would struggle to get off the ground. Stories of the Battle of Britain 1940 – Constant-Speed Propellers — Battle of Britain | 1940 | Reference | Spitfire Mk. IDid Spitfires have twin blade wooden props in 1940?.
That implies about 60 IG in external fuel.The Spitfire IX was supposed to have 175 miles of combat radius when covering US bombers.
That implies about 60 IG in external fuel.
I am confused.
A Spitfire with 85 gallons needs to be kept on the ground until the last possible minuter because it doesn't have enough fuel to alter an incept point OVER ENGLAND buy more than a few miles without running out of fuel, yet if we and just 30 gallons or so it not only fly across the channel, it will be able to return from the Ruhr or beyond?????????
I'm not sure about that, there was no 60 IG drop tank - 45 and 90 were standard sizes.
What it might imply is that internal fuel was not enough for anything resembling long range flight that might include combat. It took more than 25 IG to warm up, take off and climb to 25000 feet. 15 min of combat can use easy 25 gals - meaning that there is less than 35 IG fuel left to retrun to base. Those 35 IG 'buy' you 200+ miles in a Spitfire on relaxed cruise (can be lethal if there is LW to exploit that), less on faster cruise, and no reserves.
This is why people (including me) are suggesting the ~30 gal rear tank. Use that fuel until you're at 20000+ ft and above Channel, switch to drop tank, then drop the tank prior combat. After 15 min worth of combat, there is still 55-60 gals of fuel left in internal tanks to return to base.
The British specified climb performance because their planes had short range, they took off at the last minute to intercepted incoming aircraft, if the Spitfire had another 30G of fuel it could be at 20,000ft waiting for the enemy instead of climbing like a rocket. A Spit at 20,000ft with 85G of fuel instead of 60G is still going to have adequate performance.
No one ever said that, with 85G main, 30G rear and 45G drop tank the Spit could escort bombers over France hitting the coastal fighter bases, marshaling yards railroads, bridges anything they could find to a depth of say 100-150 miles, that would have achieved more than increasing the number of LW aces by day leaning on the enemy and getting one bomb out of 50 within 5 miles of the intended target bombing at night.
Hi Tomo - AAF estimates for the 20min of Combat allowance for the P-51B/D (5min WEP/15min MP) yielded estimates of 58-60 total gallons at 25000ft. What were the Brit standards for Combat Radius assumptions for Spit IX?
Probably not since their strategic bombing was conducted at night. Hard to escort bombers at night, I would imagine.I'm not sure that there was RAF equivalent of the AAF escort requirement.
The Ruhr has been mentioned as a possible target by this theoretical long range Spit.
The Hawker Hurricane was kept in service in UK until about 1942 because of a shortage of Spitfires which were wanted/needed all over. There was never a time when the UK had the odd 500 new Spitfires and pilots laying around unused until the war was almost over.
We have only to look at the results of the Wilhelmshaven and Schillig Roads operations to see how the Wellingtons would fare if the escort fighters cannot keep the German interceptors at bay. The Hampdens have much less effective firepower than the Wellingtons.
Basically this plan is the same as the lean into France Plan except using more planes and leaning in a bit further
Resp:I'm not sure that there was RAF equivalent of the AAF escort requirement.