Navalwarrior
Staff Sergeant
- 764
- Jun 17, 2018
Resp:
I guess the Mustang MkI and MkIA don't qualify, as their range got them to the German border while escorting Wellingtons. 1941?
Wasn't the P-51 the best escort fighter of the war?
- Thread starter Jank
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I guess the Mustang MkI and MkIA don't qualify, as their range got them to the German border while escorting Wellingtons. 1941?
Shortround6
Major General
I am confused.
A Spitfire with 85 gallons needs to be kept on the ground until the last possible minute because it doesn't have enough fuel to alter an incept point OVER ENGLAND by more than a few miles without running out of fuel, yet if we add just 30 gallons or so it not only fly across the channel, it will be able to return from the Ruhr or beyond?????????
Common guys, you can't have it both ways, even with drop tanks/slipper tanks. A Spitfire could cruise for over 2 hours after taking off, climbing to a nominal altitude (even if low) and still have 20 minutes of fuel left. Spitfire I's had nowhere near the appetite for fuel that later versions did at full throttle but shouldn't be that far off at cruise.
The problem comes in with that the cruising speed that gave it 2 hours of endurance was (even if fast enough to fly next to the painfully slow British bombers) was not fast enough to keep it from being a sitting duck if bounced by German fighters. It also does not account for combat. SO combat radius, like all other airplanes, is a lot shorter that cruise radius (range/2)
Over England there is another squadron coming (hopefully}) to relieve or beef up a defending British squadron, when flying escort there is no ready relief (one reason Fulmars and Wildcats) got such large quantities of ammo, to keep the fight going if need be). Yes you can use relays but the units doing the 2nd or third turns at escort had to take-off well before the 1st escorts are in combat, If they push too hard to join the fight they cut into their endurance on their turn at escort (or their ability to get back)
There were no 2 blade wooden props left in 1940, however you can't go back and change the initial requirement. You also have 1939/early 1940 when many service Spits and Hurricanes had 3 bald 2 pitch props, fortunately very few had to go into combat that way in England.
But the better props helped handle the increase in weight due to the armor, BP glass and self sealing material.
A Spitfire with 85 gallons needs to be kept on the ground until the last possible minute because it doesn't have enough fuel to alter an incept point OVER ENGLAND by more than a few miles without running out of fuel, yet if we add just 30 gallons or so it not only fly across the channel, it will be able to return from the Ruhr or beyond?????????
Common guys, you can't have it both ways, even with drop tanks/slipper tanks. A Spitfire could cruise for over 2 hours after taking off, climbing to a nominal altitude (even if low) and still have 20 minutes of fuel left. Spitfire I's had nowhere near the appetite for fuel that later versions did at full throttle but shouldn't be that far off at cruise.
The problem comes in with that the cruising speed that gave it 2 hours of endurance was (even if fast enough to fly next to the painfully slow British bombers) was not fast enough to keep it from being a sitting duck if bounced by German fighters. It also does not account for combat. SO combat radius, like all other airplanes, is a lot shorter that cruise radius (range/2)
Over England there is another squadron coming (hopefully}) to relieve or beef up a defending British squadron, when flying escort there is no ready relief (one reason Fulmars and Wildcats) got such large quantities of ammo, to keep the fight going if need be). Yes you can use relays but the units doing the 2nd or third turns at escort had to take-off well before the 1st escorts are in combat, If they push too hard to join the fight they cut into their endurance on their turn at escort (or their ability to get back)
There were no 2 blade wooden props left in 1940, however you can't go back and change the initial requirement. You also have 1939/early 1940 when many service Spits and Hurricanes had 3 bald 2 pitch props, fortunately very few had to go into combat that way in England.
But the better props helped handle the increase in weight due to the armor, BP glass and self sealing material.
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Shortround6
Major General
The Allison powered Mustangs did not go into service until 1942. #2 squadron of the RAF got them in April of 1942. May 10th was the first operational mission against a German airfield in France just across the channel.
Reluctant Poster
Tech Sergeant
- 1,611
- Dec 6, 2006
The channel is 20 miles wide at it narrowest. Chain home had an effective range of 80 miles. That gives you a 1/2 hour to pick up the enemy raid, track it to determine its course and intercept it. If you guess before you have the information you don't make the interception. Look at how poorly the Japanese and Americans performed in the carrier battles of 1942. They had the advantage of knowing exactly where the enemy would attack they didn't have to determine the target.
There were Hurricanes sent to France with them. The point is that is what the plane was originally designed around, once it is designed and war is declared it isn't easy to change. They may have wanted to put another 100 gallons inside but there is nowhere to put it. Between the declaration of war and 16 August 1940 RAF fighters were transformed with two pitch and then constant speed plus 100 octane fuel but that doesn't mean you can go back to the drawing board and produce a new fighter overnight. The P-51 was designed just a short time later than the Spitfire but an age in design terms, it was a much more advanced design but Mitchell couldn't win a contract designing it, with the engines fuel and props available in 1936 it would struggle to get off the ground. Stories of the Battle of Britain 1940 – Constant-Speed Propellers — Battle of Britain | 1940 | Reference | Spitfire Mk. I
Kevin J
Banned
That implies about 60 IG in external fuel.
I'm not sure about that, there was no 60 IG drop tank - 45 and 90 were standard sizes.
What it might imply is that internal fuel was not enough for anything resembling long range flight that might include combat. It took more than 25 IG to warm up, take off and climb to 25000 feet. 15 min of combat can use easy 25 gals - meaning that there is less than 35 IG fuel left to retrun to base. Those 35 IG 'buy' you 200+ miles in a Spitfire on relaxed cruise (can be lethal if there is LW to exploit that), less on faster cruise, and no reserves.
This is why people (including me) are suggesting the ~30 gal rear tank. Use that fuel until you're at 20000+ ft and above Channel, switch to drop tank, then drop the tank prior combat. After 15 min worth of combat, there is still 55-60 gals of fuel left in internal tanks to return to base.
I am confused.
A Spitfire with 85 gallons needs to be kept on the ground until the last possible minuter because it doesn't have enough fuel to alter an incept point OVER ENGLAND buy more than a few miles without running out of fuel, yet if we and just 30 gallons or so it not only fly across the channel, it will be able to return from the Ruhr or beyond?????????
No one ever said that, with 85G main, 30G rear and 45G drop tank the Spit could escort bombers over France hitting the coastal fighter bases, marshaling yards railroads, bridges anything they could find to a depth of say 100-150 miles, that would have achieved more than increasing the number of LW aces by day leaning on the enemy and getting one bomb out of 50 within 5 miles of the intended target bombing at night.
drgondog
Major
Hi Tomo - AAF estimates for the 20min of Combat allowance for the P-51B/D (5min WEP/15min MP) yielded estimates of 58-60 total gallons at 25000ft. What were the Brit standards for Combat Radius assumptions for Spit IX?
Shortround6
Major General
The Ruhr has been mentioned as a possible target by this theoretical long range Spit.
you have stated
I would suggest that people advocating this........
........look at a map. It may be 20 miles from Dover to Calais but it is over 90 miles from Brighton to Le Havre and and 133 miles From Felixstowe to Rotterdam. And about 90 miles from Margate to Brugge. Pulling back from the coast just a bit it is about 100 miles from Ashford to Arras.
Basically this plan is the same as the lean into France Plan except using more planes and leaning in a bit further. Destroying coastal French, Belgian and Dutch infrastructure in 1941/early 1942 isn't going to change much, Stopping the deeper night raids means the Germans can shift AA guns (at least some of them) to the coastal areas. Since few (if any?) AA batteries had radar at this point in the war letting them shoot at bombers in daylight would do wonders for their scores. Early German radars were not accurate enough for night firing, they controlled the searchlights and then, once the target/s were illuminated the engagement was conducted using optics. Bombing by day eliminates the searchlights and provides better lighting for the AA gun optics.
Bombers in 1941 are the Wellington, Hampden and god forbid the Whitley( perhaps better used at night to keep up 24 hour pressure? ).
We have only to look at the results of the Wilhelmshaven and Schillig Roads operations to see how the Wellingtons would fare if the escort fighters cannot keep the German interceptors at bay. The Hampdens have much less effective firepower than the Wellingtons.
you have stated
I would suggest that people advocating this........
........look at a map. It may be 20 miles from Dover to Calais but it is over 90 miles from Brighton to Le Havre and and 133 miles From Felixstowe to Rotterdam. And about 90 miles from Margate to Brugge. Pulling back from the coast just a bit it is about 100 miles from Ashford to Arras.
Basically this plan is the same as the lean into France Plan except using more planes and leaning in a bit further. Destroying coastal French, Belgian and Dutch infrastructure in 1941/early 1942 isn't going to change much, Stopping the deeper night raids means the Germans can shift AA guns (at least some of them) to the coastal areas. Since few (if any?) AA batteries had radar at this point in the war letting them shoot at bombers in daylight would do wonders for their scores. Early German radars were not accurate enough for night firing, they controlled the searchlights and then, once the target/s were illuminated the engagement was conducted using optics. Bombing by day eliminates the searchlights and provides better lighting for the AA gun optics.
Bombers in 1941 are the Wellington, Hampden and god forbid the Whitley( perhaps better used at night to keep up 24 hour pressure? ).
We have only to look at the results of the Wilhelmshaven and Schillig Roads operations to see how the Wellingtons would fare if the escort fighters cannot keep the German interceptors at bay. The Hampdens have much less effective firepower than the Wellingtons.
I'm not sure that there was RAF equivalent of the AAF escort requirement.
P-39 Expert
Non-Expert
Probably not since their strategic bombing was conducted at night. Hard to escort bombers at night, I would imagine.
If you have your Spitfire with all internal fuel discussed and a range of circa 175 -200 miles with an allowance for combat you need 3 or 4 waves of escort aircraft to hit a target like Essen. The bombers of the time were slow and had little defence to beam attacks. A small force has no "herd" defence, a single plane is highly likely to be shot down by anti aircraft fire because all guns are firing at it. Do you have 20 or 40 or 100 or 200 bombers. If this is your strategy then you quickly require an extra 500-1000 Spitfires. The Hawker Hurricane was kept in service in UK until about 1942 because of a shortage of Spitfires which were wanted/needed all over. There was never a time when the UK had the odd 500 new Spitfires and pilots laying around unused until the war was almost over.
I mentioned the Ruhr but with the MkVIII/IX not the MkV.
The reason for the shortage of Spitfires was because they were squandered over France on pointless rhubarbs, they lost around 300 in the first half of '42 alone.
All they achieved bombing at night was dump bombs randomly across Europe, yes they would suffer losses bombing in daylight but at least they would bomb the right country and maybe get a few within a few miles or heaven forbid actually hit the intended target.
The extra fuel available would allow for a higher cruise speed which is what they needed to do, lets be realistic, the RAF were going to lean on the enemy one way or the other, that's the deal so they may as well achieve something worthwhile doing it.
Navalwarrior
Staff Sergeant
- 764
- Jun 17, 2018
Resp:
The RAF began receiving Merlin Mustangs w/in a few months after the US 9th AF. It may have been some time before they became operational, due to training required for transition. However, the only group that I am aware of that escorted bombers was a Polish Unit No 315 Unit. Case in point, provided escort for Mosquitos that were to attack German shipping. I am sure there are members of this forum that can an answer their use.
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