Wasn't the P-51 the best escort fighter of the war?

[pbehn]

All they achieved bombing at night was dump bombs randomly across Europe, yes they would suffer losses bombing in daylight but at least they would bomb the right country and maybe get a few within a few miles or heaven forbid actually hit the intended target.

The first thousand bomber raid on Cologne was 31 May 1942 the next was 1/2 June 1942 on Essen, be sure Cologne and Essen were hit.

The reason for the shortage of Spitfires was because they were squandered over France on pointless rhubarbs, they lost around 300 in the first half of '42 alone.

Imagine how many they would have lost over Germany?

The extra fuel available would allow for a higher cruise speed which is what they needed to do, lets be realistic, the RAF were going to lean on the enemy one way or the other, that's the deal so they may as well achieve something worthwhile doing it.

The higher cruise speed is a zig zag speed, the ground speed and therefore range is governed by the speed of the bombers you are with.

 

[Shortround6]

All they achieved bombing at night was dump bombs randomly across Europe, yes they would suffer losses bombing in daylight but at least they would bomb the right country and maybe get a few within a few miles or heaven forbid actually hit the intended target.

The extra fuel available would allow for a higher cruise speed which is what they needed to do, lets be realistic, the RAF were going to lean on the enemy one way or the other, that's the deal so they may as well achieve something worthwhile doing it.

So instead of losing a few bombers and a lot of fighters you lose a lot more bombers and somewhat fewer fighters (maybe?) while dropping very few bombs on German industry or much of anything of real importance to the Germans in 1941/ early 1942.

There is no argument that the British accomplished very little with Bomber Command in 1941 but providing the German Flak crews with target practice is not really a good alternative.

The 8th AIr Force may have lost 1/2 of its combat loses to flak. The British bombers of 1941, flying lower and slower and going to be much easier targets.

The Spits may learn to keep their speed up but there is not a lot you can do with Wellington or Hampden. Granted the AA guns are much fewer in 1941 than later but if Venturas and Baltimore's were not suited for daylight bombing over the coast (the Baltimore was not even tried) then the Wellington and Hampden loses are going to be astronomical.

 

[swampyankee]

All they achieved bombing at night was dump bombs randomly across Europe, yes they would suffer losses bombing in daylight but at least they would bomb the right country and maybe get a few within a few miles or heaven forbid actually hit the intended target.

Those were also things the USAAF's day bombing campaign struggled with, at least at the start.

 

[pbehn]

Europe is covered in cloud much of the time and places like Essen were covered in a cloud of "industrial haze" most of the time. In those cases day and night are essentially the same.

 

[Kevin J]

I'm not sure about that, there was no 60 IG drop tank - 45 and 90 were standard sizes.
What it might imply is that internal fuel was not enough for anything resembling long range flight that might include combat. It took more than 25 IG to warm up, take off and climb to 25000 feet. 15 min of combat can use easy 25 gals - meaning that there is less than 35 IG fuel left to retrun to base. Those 35 IG 'buy' you 200+ miles in a Spitfire on relaxed cruise (can be lethal if there is LW to exploit that), less on faster cruise, and no reserves.
This is why people (including me) are suggesting the ~30 gal rear tank. Use that fuel until you're at 20000+ ft and above Channel, switch to drop tank, then drop the tank prior combat. After 15 min worth of combat, there is still 55-60 gals of fuel left in internal tanks to return to base.

The rear tank came along on the Spitfire Vc in December 1942 for ferrying them from Gibraltar to Malta along with the 170 IG slipper tank. 60 IG drop tanks borrowed from Kittyhawks were used in the Mediterranean in 1942 and by the BPF in 1945. The preferred solution was wing tanks of about 28/32 gallons on the Spitfire VII, VIII, IX along with the 90 IG slipper drop tank. Some long over water raids were done with these; SW England to La Pallice and Darwin to East Timor.

 

[PAT303]

So instead of losing a few bombers and a lot of fighters you lose a lot more bombers and somewhat fewer fighters (maybe?) while dropping very few bombs on German industry or much of anything of real importance to the Germans in 1941/ early 1942.[/QUOTE

Rhubarbs rodeo's and circuses were all aimed at hitting targets of opportunity along the French coast, circuses used bombers as bait to draw the LW into a fight, if the RAF fitted aux fuel tanks they would have had the fuel to maintain a high cruising speed and fuel to fight as explained in post 207, if relayed they could cover the bombers without issue, in 1941 they were not short of fighters or pilots keen to fight.

 

[Dan Fahey]

Resp:
I guess the Mustang MkI and MkIA don't qualify, as their range got them to the German border while escorting Wellingtons. 1941?

One of the desired features the British liked about the Allison Mustang is could throttle down to a low rpm.
Allowed them to keep pace with the loaded bombers.
Which added to its range capabilities.
This was something the Merlin's could not do.

d

 

[tomo pauk]

One of the desired features the British liked about the Allison Mustang is could throttle down to a low rpm.
Allowed them to keep pace with the loaded bombers.
Which added to its range capabilities.
This was something the Merlin's could not do.

d

British Mustangs seldom escorted bombers, not just because they lacked drop tanks before Mustang II arrived in Sept 1943. Escorting bombers on low speed and altitude is one way ticket to get killed when above enemy-held airspace.

 

[tomo pauk]

The rear tank came along on the Spitfire Vc in December 1942 for ferrying them from Gibraltar to Malta along with the 170 IG slipper tank. 60 IG drop tanks borrowed from Kittyhawks were used in the Mediterranean in 1942 and by the BPF in 1945. The preferred solution was wing tanks of about 28/32 gallons on the Spitfire VII, VIII, IX along with the 90 IG slipper drop tank. Some long over water raids were done with these; SW England to La Pallice and Darwin to East Timor.

60 IG drop tanks from Kittyhawk were not used in ETO. Rear tank was IIRC ferry-only - once the Spitfire was deployed, the 29 gal tank was removed. 'Preferred solution' was never installed on Spitfire IX, the main British fighter providing cover for the 8th AF bombers.
Spitfire VII and VIII received modified fuselage tanks, that now allowed for 95 IG, plus eading edge tanks of 2x 12.5 IG, for total of 120 IG. Unfortunately, VII and VIII were rarely if ever used in the ETO.

 

[Kevin J]

60 IG drop tanks from Kittyhawk were not used in ETO. Rear tank was IIRC ferry-only - once the Spitfire was deployed, the 29 gal tank was removed. 'Preferred solution' was never installed on Spitfire IX, the main British fighter providing cover for the 8th AF bombers.
Spitfire VII and VIII received modified fuselage tanks, that now allowed for 95 IG, plus eading edge tanks of 2x 12.5 IG, for total of 120 IG. Unfortunately, VII and VIII were rarely if ever used in the ETO.

The VII was used for the La Pallice raid, the VIII for the East Timor raid.

 

[Navalwarrior]

British Mustangs seldom escorted bombers, not just because they lacked drop tanks before Mustang II arrived in Sept 1943. Escorting bombers on low speed and altitude is one way ticket to get killed when above enemy-held airspace.

Reap:
A-36As of the MTO (can't recall the unit) escorted twin engined bombers across the Med (and back) to just North of Sicily to bomb a German target. Also, the RAF received Merlin Mustangs. Certainly, these had to be used for bomber escort! ? ?

 

[Conslaw]

Reap:
A-36As of the MTO (can't recall the unit) escorted twin engined bombers across the Med (and back) to just North of Sicily to bomb a German target. Also, the RAF received Merlin Mustangs. Certainly, these had to be used for bomber escort! ? ?

As I understand it the original British Mustang I models and the initial American version, the P-51 (no letter), were not fitted for drop tanks on the wings. The drop tanks came with the P-51A and Mustang II models, but only 310 and 50 of these were delivered. The A-36 also was fitted for drop tanks, but only 500 A-36 were built. There simply weren't enough of these planes built for any large scale bomber escort assignments.

(Per Joe Baugher, the RAF received 274 P-51Bs and 626 P-51Cs.)

 

[Navalwarrior]

As I understand it the original British Mustang I models and the initial American version, the P-51 (no letter), were not fitted for drop tanks on the wings. The drop tanks came with the P-51A and Mustang II models, but only 310 and 50 of these were delivered. The A-36 also was fitted for drop tanks, but only 500 A-36 were built. There simply weren't enough of these planes built for any large scale bomber escort assignments.

(Per Joe Baugher, the RAF received 274 P-51Bs and 626 P-51Cs.)

Resp:
Correct. Except that the A-36A was designed first, which included plumbing for drop tanks. Since NAA designed wing pylons for carrying bombs, they included plumbing for external fuel stores (drop tanks). The fighter version, the P-51A benefitted from the drawings for the A-36A.

 

[tomo pauk]

Resp:
Correct. Except that the A-36A was designed first, which included plumbing for drop tanks. Since NAA designed wing pylons for carrying bombs, they included plumbing for external fuel stores (drop tanks). The fighter version, the P-51A benefitted from the drawings for the A-36A.

After the XP-51 (NA-73X), the NA-73 was next. British name: Mustang I. Armed with 4 HMGs, 4 LMGs. NA-73 was 1st delivered in August 1941.
P-51 (NA-91) followed, featuring 4 cannons. British name: Mustang Ia. 1st delivered in July 1942.
A-36A (NA-97) was next. 4 HMGs, low-level engine, dive brakes, wing racks for fuel and bombs. 1st delivered in October 1942.
P-51A (NA-99) followed in March 1943. featured V-1710 with 9.6:1 supercharger gearing for better hi-alt performance. Wing racks, 4 HMGs.

 

[Navalwarrior]

After the XP-51 (NA-73X), the NA-73 was next. British name: Mustang I. Armed with 4 HMGs, 4 LMGs. NA-73 was 1st delivered in August 1941.
P-51 (NA-91) followed, featuring 4 cannons. British name: Mustang Ia. 1st delivered in July 1942.
A-36A (NA-97) was next. 4 HMGs, low-level engine, dive brakes, wing racks for fuel and bombs. 1st delivered in October 1942.
P-51A (NA-99) followed in March 1943. featured V-1710 with 9.6:1 supercharger gearing for better hi-alt performance. Wing racks, 4 HMGs.

Resp:
My response was inre to the A-36A and P-51A.

 

[Milosh]

Preferred solution' was never installed on Spitfire IX, the main British fighter providing cover for the 8th AF bombers.

I am sure the Spit IX Pilot Manual has flight restrictions for the rear fuselage fuel tank.

 

[Reluctant Poster]

Those were also things the USAAF's day bombing campaign struggled with, at least at the start.

As I have posted in the past, according to the United States Strategic Bombing Survey Report on Oil, the RAF was more accurate at night than the USAAF during the day. The myth of the Norden bombsight refuses to die.

 

[FLYBOYJ]

As I have posted in the past, according to the United States Strategic Bombing Survey Report on Oil, the RAF was more accurate at night than the USAAF during the day. The myth of the Norden bombsight refuses to die.

Agree but remember the RAF mainly "area bombed." "You can't miss with a shotgun."

 

[nuuumannn]

There is no argument that the British accomplished very little with Bomber Command in 1941 but providing the German Flak crews with target practice is not really a good alternative.

There's an element of truth in this and before Harris came along, there were so many issues endemic in Bomber Command that needed fixing that escorts were only a small fraction of what was problematic within the command. The Butt report and previous investigation by Ludlow-Hewitt revealed that training for the defensive armament of British bombers was inadequate and good gunners were in short supply, which actually pushed for central gunnery training schools, also navigation to and from the target area, accuracy of existing bomb sights, problematic aircraft designs etc... there was so much to fix.

Regarding the Mustang Is and IIs, these were not going to be used as escorts by the British despite their range and they did have exceptional range despite what's been posted here before; during trials at Boscombe down, the Mustang I was found to have a range of over 900 miles, which by any stretch is impressive for 1941/1942. These aircraft were used primarily as tactical recon aircraft, where their range and speed at low level was useful. That they could tangle with an Fw 190 and most likely succeed was a bonus, but their role was recon, not as fighters.

Allison engined Mustangs equipped 16 RAF squadrons and were still in use right until the end of the war. post raid recon for both Bomber Command and the US 8th AF was largely carried out by these aircraft rather than the RAF's specialised PRUs. The build up to D-Day and the massive recon effort for it was again largely done by these aircraft, so their war effort was invaluable outside of any thought of long range escort duties.

 

[Navalwarrior]

Agree but remember the RAF mainly "area bombed." "You can't miss with a shotgun."

Resp:
The Germans also were pretty good structure camouflage, often just shifting the IP so the bombs did minimum damage. I have also seen rivers or water ways rerouted to help disorient Allied bombing.