Reluctant Poster
Tech Sergeant
- 1,630
- Dec 6, 2006
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The CVLs and CVEs were prisoners of their light cruiser and merchant ship origins. I have no idea of what the Japanese were thinking. Their funnel arrangements were generally sub optimal.But not until postwar.
See Japanese Unryu class (completed after the Hiyos and Taiho), WW2 Independence & Saipan class CVL, WW2 escort carriers. Even the 1948/49 flush deck CVA-58 United States (not built) and early iterations of the Forrestal design.
Going nuclear got rid of the problem.
The problem I have remembering the names of RN ships is it that they all seem to have these stupendous adjectives for names.
The Invincible-class submarines, formally classified as the Type 218SG submarines, is a class of conventionally-powered attack subs on order by the Republic of Singapore Navy.How does U.S.S. Undiscombobulateable sound?
Taffy 3 at Samar would be a good example of what happens to carriers when the main fleet is elsewhere.The above assumes you actually have aircraft available, or that conditions allow you to use them.
The encounter could be at night or in severe weather and/or poor visibility.
Your aircraft could be off attacking some other target, and not immediately available to fend off enemy surface combatants that you run across through bad luck.
Was it HMS Illustrious that took part (briefly) in the line of battle?The encounter could be at night or in severe weather and/or poor visibility.
No. Sister ship Formidable at Matapan.Was it HMS Illustrious that took part (briefly) in the line of battle?
Also HMS Glorious off Norway. I will never understand why Glorious didn't alter course and pour on steam. Both forces had approximately the same speed, a stern chase is a long chase.Taffy 3 at Samar would be a good example of what happens to carriers when the main fleet is elsewhere.
Also HMS Glorious off Norway. I will never understand why Glorious didn't alter course and pour on steam. Both forces had approximately the same speed, an stern chase is a long chase.
Taffy 3 at Samar would be a good example of what happens to carriers when the main fleet is elsewhere.
As she was on passage back to Scapa Flow and not expecting trouble, she was making only 17 knots, zig-sagging, with only 12 of her 18 boilers connected. Ship's company at cruising stations in fourth degree of readiness. On spotting S&G she did turn away and orders were issued to increase speed to 27 knots. The engineering dept had to flash up those 6 boilers and get them up to operating temps, and they managed it. Running away however meant running downwind. S&G were running at up to 29 knots during the action.Also HMS Glorious off Norway. I will never understand why Glorious didn't alter course and pour on steam. Both forces had approximately the same speed, an stern chase is a long chase.
Now that is an accomplishment that no other carrier can claim.No. Sister ship Formidable at Matapan.
Taffy 3 was on the ball - the moment the pagoda masts emerged from the squall on the horizon, the force went into emergency mode.For the contrary viewpoint, Taffy3 (and the sinking of the Glorious mentioned downthread) is what happens when the carriers don't make use of one of their greatest weapons, namely improved situational awareness.
And arguably the same can happen if a BB task force stumbles upon a superior enemy task force, for that matter.
Taffy 3 was on the ball - the moment the pagoda masts emerged from the squall on the horizon, the force went into emergency mode.
While it was a one-sided fight, Taffy 3, especially the Destroyers, put up one hell of a fight.
Had they been caught with their pants down, it would have been a total disaster for Taffy 3.
As she was on passage back to Scapa Flow and not expecting trouble, she was making only 17 knots, zig-sagging, with only 12 of her 18 boilers connected.
Had they been caught with their pants down, it would have been a total disaster for Taffy 3.
Unfortunately, we will never know what was going through D'Oyly-Hughes mind that day as he was one of those who died. He was on the way home to court martial his most senior flier, Commander (F) Heath, who he had already put ashore. He had already berated the next most senior for daring to offer advice. It was not a happy ship.... in a war zone. Oh, and no flying patrol? Dear god. Just spotting the Ugly Sisters an hour early might allow escape, or even a carrier air attack. This is "Boscoe" Wright levels of incompetence.
The loss of Courageous and Glorious was a blow to Britain.It's my understanding that not all of her boilers were lit and up to pressure. I seem to remember the ship had only ten or twelve lit, for whatever reason. By the time steam is up, she's already caught some killing shots.
The speed was not at all unusual, even in a war zone. Even in 1945 fleet operating speeds, both USN & RN were generally in the 15-20 knot bracket, with 24-25 being the usual max. Even the KM had been operating at around 15-19 knots in that war zone, before working up to higher speeds on sighting Glorious & her consorts.
There was an intelligence failure in neither detecting or deducing that the KM were at sea in force (Hipper & 4 destroyers were also involved in Operation Juno).
Formidable fired a single salvo from one of her 4.5" batteries before being ordered out of the line to hide in the darkness.Now that is an accomplishment that no other carrier can claim.
There's a BIG difference between sailing in formation as part of the Line of Battle and "WTF! Those ships AIN'T ours! RUN!!!"Formidable fired a single salvo from one of her 4.5" batteries before being ordered out of the line to hide in the darkness.
Of the carriers in Taffy 3, at least White Plains, Gambier Bay, St Lo, & Kalinin Bay fired on the Japanese cruisers with their single 5" gun on the stern, and with at least the last claiming a couple of hits.