Weather limitations in carrier aviation in the interwar and WWII eras

[Reluctant Poster]

But not until postwar.

See Japanese Unryu class (completed after the Hiyos and Taiho), WW2 Independence & Saipan class CVL, WW2 escort carriers. Even the 1948/49 flush deck CVA-58 United States (not built) and early iterations of the Forrestal design.

Going nuclear got rid of the problem.

The CVLs and CVEs were prisoners of their light cruiser and merchant ship origins. I have no idea of what the Japanese were thinking. Their funnel arrangements were generally sub optimal.
CVA 58 lost its island to accommodate the massive nuclear bomber (100,000 lb) proposed to fly from it.

Navy ADR Studies

The BuAer Aircraft Design Branch accomplished notional predesign studies to define prospective aircraft types. These were given ADR numbers and used to test the feasibility of proposal specifications, e.g. the notorious 30,000-lb jet attack airplane that Ed Heinemann compared the A4D Skyhawk to...

www.secretprojects.co.uk

 

[GreenKnight121]

The problem I have remembering the names of RN ships is it that they all seem to have these stupendous adjectives for names.

How does U.S.S. Undiscombobulateable sound?

The Invincible-class submarines, formally classified as the Type 218SG submarines, is a class of conventionally-powered attack subs on order by the Republic of Singapore Navy.

RSS Invincible
RSS Impeccable
RSS Illustrious
RSS Inimitable

 

[SaparotRob]

Those are some names! I'm especially fond of Inimitable.
It would be cool to have Enterprise, Kaga and Illustrious operating together. HMS Enterprise as well.

 

[GrauGeist]

The above assumes you actually have aircraft available, or that conditions allow you to use them.

The encounter could be at night or in severe weather and/or poor visibility.

Your aircraft could be off attacking some other target, and not immediately available to fend off enemy surface combatants that you run across through bad luck.

Taffy 3 at Samar would be a good example of what happens to carriers when the main fleet is elsewhere.

 

[SaparotRob]

The encounter could be at night or in severe weather and/or poor visibility.

Was it HMS Illustrious that took part (briefly) in the line of battle?

 

[EwenS]

Was it HMS Illustrious that took part (briefly) in the line of battle?

No. Sister ship Formidable at Matapan.

 

[pinehilljoe]

Taffy 3 at Samar would be a good example of what happens to carriers when the main fleet is elsewhere.

Also HMS Glorious off Norway. I will never understand why Glorious didn't alter course and pour on steam. Both forces had approximately the same speed, a stern chase is a long chase.

 

[Thumpalumpacus]

Also HMS Glorious off Norway. I will never understand why Glorious didn't alter course and pour on steam. Both forces had approximately the same speed, an stern chase is a long chase.

It's my understanding that not all of her boilers were lit and up to pressure. I seem to remember the ship had only ten or twelve lit, for whatever reason. By the time steam is up, she's already caught some killing shots.

 

[z42]

Taffy 3 at Samar would be a good example of what happens to carriers when the main fleet is elsewhere.

For the contrary viewpoint, Taffy3 (and the sinking of the Glorious mentioned downthread) is what happens when the carriers don't make use of one of their greatest weapons, namely improved situational awareness.

And arguably the same can happen if a BB task force stumbles upon a superior enemy task force, for that matter.

 

[EwenS]

Also HMS Glorious off Norway. I will never understand why Glorious didn't alter course and pour on steam. Both forces had approximately the same speed, an stern chase is a long chase.

As she was on passage back to Scapa Flow and not expecting trouble, she was making only 17 knots, zig-sagging, with only 12 of her 18 boilers connected. Ship's company at cruising stations in fourth degree of readiness. On spotting S&G she did turn away and orders were issued to increase speed to 27 knots. The engineering dept had to flash up those 6 boilers and get them up to operating temps, and they managed it. Running away however meant running downwind. S&G were running at up to 29 knots during the action.


The whole sorry episode is set out in John Winton's "Carrier Glorious, The Life and Death of an Aircraft Carrier". Chapter 10 deals with her loss.

 

[SaparotRob]

No. Sister ship Formidable at Matapan.

Now that is an accomplishment that no other carrier can claim.

 

[GrauGeist]

For the contrary viewpoint, Taffy3 (and the sinking of the Glorious mentioned downthread) is what happens when the carriers don't make use of one of their greatest weapons, namely improved situational awareness.

And arguably the same can happen if a BB task force stumbles upon a superior enemy task force, for that matter.

Taffy 3 was on the ball - the moment the pagoda masts emerged from the squall on the horizon, the force went into emergency mode.

While it was a one-sided fight, Taffy 3, especially the Destroyers, put up one hell of a fight.

Had they been caught with their pants down, it would have been a total disaster for Taffy 3.

 

[z42]

Taffy 3 was on the ball - the moment the pagoda masts emerged from the squall on the horizon, the force went into emergency mode.

While it was a one-sided fight, Taffy 3, especially the Destroyers, put up one hell of a fight.

Had they been caught with their pants down, it would have been a total disaster for Taffy 3.

My point being, if they play their cards correctly, the carriers should never be in a situation with enemy BB's closing to gun range.

Now in the particular case of the Battle of Samar, that egg is squarely in the face of Halsey and not Taffy3. The heroic stand of the Taffy3 escorts in the face of impossible odds indeed saved a bad situation from becoming a full-blown disaster.

 

[Thumpalumpacus]

As she was on passage back to Scapa Flow and not expecting trouble, she was making only 17 knots, zig-sagging, with only 12 of her 18 boilers connected.

... in a war zone. Oh, and no flying patrol? Dear god. Just spotting the Ugly Sisters an hour early might allow escape, or even a carrier air attack. This is "Boscoe" Wright levels of incompetence.

 

[Thumpalumpacus]

Had they been caught with their pants down, it would have been a total disaster for Taffy 3.

TBH, they were caught with their pants down. They just belted up fast and got the FooD. Mock strafing runs and dropping depth-charges because that's what was loaded airborne, and Taffy 1 and 2 being close by to launch attacks with apt weapons, was good. It was sure a disaster for Taffy 3's escorts.

It was a pants-down moment. 3 DDs and 4 DEs up against 4 BBs, 4 CAs, and a shit-ton of enemy DDs gave both the Spragues, Kinkaid, and eventually Halsey a Peptol-Bismol moment.

 

[EwenS]

... in a war zone. Oh, and no flying patrol? Dear god. Just spotting the Ugly Sisters an hour early might allow escape, or even a carrier air attack. This is "Boscoe" Wright levels of incompetence.

Unfortunately, we will never know what was going through D'Oyly-Hughes mind that day as he was one of those who died. He was on the way home to court martial his most senior flier, Commander (F) Heath, who he had already put ashore. He had already berated the next most senior for daring to offer advice. It was not a happy ship.

He was also reported to have said to the CO of the fighter squadron, who had suggested, after the attack had begun, launching Sea Glads to go find Ark Royal for help, DH "had repudiated his proposals in no uncertain terms, with a final statement to the effect that 'Surely you don't wish your pilots to behave like rats leaving a sinking ship'".

The speed was not at all unusual, even in a war zone. Even in 1945 fleet operating speeds, both USN & RN were generally in the 15-20 knot bracket, with 24-25 being the usual max. Even the KM had been operating at around 15-19 knots in that war zone, before working up to higher speeds on sighting Glorious & her consorts.

Her own air group had been reduced to half a squadron (6) of Swordfish & 9 Sea Gladiators, to leave space for her to bring home RAF Gladiators & Hurricanes (these were landed on without the benefit of arrester hooks, and was the first time a Hurricane had been deck landed). Why she wasn't operating even an AS patrol is one of the great unknowns. On sighting the twins a Swordfish torpedo strike was ordered, but the next problem was that only three aircraft were fitted with a torpedo rack, as the operations the previous day had been bombing missions. And earlier that morning the warheads had been removed and returned to their magazines. One survivor described a kind of "holiday" atmosphere aboard as leave was due on arrival!

Ships were returning to Britain in small groups. The tanker Oil Pioneer & her trawler escort were caught & sunk by the KM ships. The cruiser Devonshire was nearby travelling alone taking The Norwegian Royal Family to Britain. She picked up Glorious signals of the attack, but being under orders to maintain strict radio silence, did not pass them on.

There was an intelligence failure in neither detecting or deducing that the KM were at sea in force (Hipper & 4 destroyers were also involved in Operation Juno).

There was also an element if bad luck. The initial contact by S&G was by a lookout who spotted a wisp of smoke on the horizon some 28 miles distant. They opened fire at 14 miles, and with radar ranging S secured a hit with her third salvo which demolished 1 Swordfish on the flight deck before penetrating the flight deck and exploding in the upper hangar, amongst the Hurricanes stored there, and starting a serious fire. Almost the next salvo hit the bridge, destroying it and killing everyone there. And shortly after that a hit in the boiler uptakes caused a speed reduction and sealed her fate.

It was a very sorry episode in RN history.

Edit:- For those unfamiliar with this battleground here is a map. The action took place about 200 miles from the Norwegian coast

And a more detailed look at the ship movements. Note Glorious turning away from her attackers once She was aware of them and running.

 

[pinehilljoe]

It's my understanding that not all of her boilers were lit and up to pressure. I seem to remember the ship had only ten or twelve lit, for whatever reason. By the time steam is up, she's already caught some killing shots.

The loss of Courageous and Glorious was a blow to Britain.

 

[Thumpalumpacus]

The speed was not at all unusual, even in a war zone. Even in 1945 fleet operating speeds, both USN & RN were generally in the 15-20 knot bracket, with 24-25 being the usual max. Even the KM had been operating at around 15-19 knots in that war zone, before working up to higher speeds on sighting Glorious & her consorts.

This, and the absence of an ASW patrol aloft, after the sinking of Courageous, strikes me as borderline criminal. You're that close to German forces, you ought to be alert.

There was an intelligence failure in neither detecting or deducing that the KM were at sea in force (Hipper & 4 destroyers were also involved in Operation Juno).

That should have been assumed, given their proclivity for U-boat operations. There was an intelligence failure, all right.

 

[EwenS]

Now that is an accomplishment that no other carrier can claim.

Formidable fired a single salvo from one of her 4.5" batteries before being ordered out of the line to hide in the darkness.

Of the carriers in Taffy 3, at least White Plains, Gambier Bay, St Lo, & Kalinin Bay fired on the Japanese cruisers with their single 5" gun on the stern, and with at least the last claiming a couple of hits.

 

[SaparotRob]

Formidable fired a single salvo from one of her 4.5" batteries before being ordered out of the line to hide in the darkness.

Of the carriers in Taffy 3, at least White Plains, Gambier Bay, St Lo, & Kalinin Bay fired on the Japanese cruisers with their single 5" gun on the stern, and with at least the last claiming a couple of hits.

There's a BIG difference between sailing in formation as part of the Line of Battle and "WTF! Those ships AIN'T ours! RUN!!!"
Yes, I know Taffy 3 was shooting at the Japanese ships. "We're suckering them in to 40mm range". Taffy 3 was running away, not exactly formed up in the classic line of battle. HMS Formidable was part of the line, however briefly, with the big boys headed TOWARDS the enemy.
I give "honorary battleship" to HMS Formidable.