Were Vögl, Bendert and Stigler punished?

[CHen10]

This is from Franz Stigler's Wikipedia:

In North Africa, Stigler flew in the Schwarm made up of Oberleutnant Ferdinand Vögl, the commander of 4. Staffel, Oberfeldwebel Karl-Heinz Bendert, Oberfeldwebel Erwin Sawallisch and Stigler. At the time, most of the aerial victories claimed by II. Gruppe were allegedly achieved by pilots of 4. Staffel, of which 63 out 66 claims were attributed to these four pilots alone. In comparison, the claims filed by Vögl, Bendert, Sawallisch and Stigler far exceeded the number of aerial victories claimed by other units of JG 27 and raised significant doubt within the Luftwaffe.[3]​This Schwarm of JG 27 was prevented from flying together after 59-kill ace Hans-Arnold Stahlschmidt reported that he saw them shooting into the dunes of the desert during a mission in which they claimed 12 aerial victories.[4] ​



And this is from this website: German biplane fighter aces - Erwin Sawallisch

"During the early afternoon on 19 August, Oberfeldwebel Sawallisch of 4./JG 27 took off on a test flight in Bf 109 F-4 trop. WNr. 8782 from which he failed to return. Next day his naked body was washed ashore, the reason for his death officially unknown. However, it was thought possible that, accused of making false claims and fearing a possible court martial, he had deliberately dived into the sea."

So Sawallisch is suspected of committing suicide.

Does anyone know if Vögl, Bendert or Stigler faced any punishment like a court martial? To be honest, I am surprised they weren't banned from flying. This is the only case I have seen where pilots have deliberately lied about their claims!

 

[Andrew Arthy]

There was no official punishment for these pilots. They continued flying with II./J.G. 27 in North Africa until the unit returned to Europe in November 1942 for rest and refit.

Cheers,
Andrew A.

 

[CHen10]

There was no official punishment for these pilots. They continued flying with II./J.G. 27 in North Africa until the unit returned to Europe in November 1942 for rest and refit.

Cheers,
Andrew A.

Thanks Andrew. Do you know why they weren't punished?

 

[Andrew Arthy]

I'm not sure why they weren't punished, but Bendert was awarded the Ehrenpokal in September 1942 and the Deutsches Kreuz in Gold in October 1942, so rather than being punished, he was rewarded.

Cheers,
Andrew A.

 

[CHen10]

I'm not sure why they weren't punished, but Bendert was awarded the Ehrenpokal in September 1942 and the Deutsches Kreuz in Gold in October 1942, so rather than being punished, he was rewarded.

Cheers,
Andrew A.

Very interesting. I assume they were just given a verbal final warning or something similar.

 

[BiffF15]

When you need bodies your window of acceptance will grow accordingly.

 

[CHen10]

When you need bodies your window of acceptance will grow accordingly.

But this isn't overclaiming, this is straight up lying.

 

[PAT303]

"During the early afternoon on 19 August, Oberfeldwebel Sawallisch of 4./JG 27 took off on a test flight in Bf 109 F-4 trop. WNr. 8782 from which he failed to return. Next day his naked body was washed ashore, the reason for his death officially unknown. However, it was thought possible that, accused of making false claims and fearing a possible court martial, he had deliberately dived into the sea."

It was a test flight so the aircraft obviously had some type of issue that needed to be tested checked and then be cleared for operations, instead of diving into the sea maybe the problem wasn't corrected causing the accident to happen?.

 

[CHen10]

It was a test flight so the aircraft obviously had some type of issue that needed to be tested checked and then be cleared for operations, instead of diving into the sea maybe the problem wasn't corrected causing the accident to happen?.

Yeah that is possible. We don't know for sure if it was suicide it's just that the timing of his death is a little suspicious which leads some to believe it is suicide.

What we definitely know is that those four pilots faked claims on purpose

 

[PAT303]

Makes you wonder why, why destroy your credibility that way?

 

[CHen10]

Makes you wonder why, why destroy your credibility that way?

It really is strange I agree

 

[Snautzer01]

Makes you wonder why, why destroy your credibility that way?

Fame money birds (female ones) medals. Standing among peers etc etc etc.
A lot of early luftwaffe aces where seen as rock stars. Like Galland Molders Marseille etc.

Look here and you will find plenty od reason why a 20 year old might not play fair.

eBay: Airwar ww2 The Pilots.

WWII RAF Battle of Britain Spitfire fighter ace Pat Jamie Jameson DSO DFC*signed | eBay English

ww2aircraft.net

 

[CHen10]

Makes you wonder why, why destroy your credibility that way?

And then Franz Stigler was involved in the B-17 Charlie Brown incident. This is some interesting information:

Brown's damaged, straggling bomber was spotted by Germans on the ground, including Franz Stigler (then an ace with 27 victories), who was refueling and rearming at an airfield. He soon took off in his Messerschmitt Bf 109 G-6 (which had an American .50 BMG bullet embedded in its radiator, risking the engine overheating) and quickly caught up with Brown's plane. Through openings torn in the damaged bomber's airframe by flak and machine gun fire, Stigler was able to see the injured and incapacitated crew. To the American pilot's surprise, the German did not open fire on the crippled bomber. Stigler instead recalled the words of one of his commanding officers from JG 27, Gustav Rödel, during his time fighting in North Africa: "If I ever see or hear of you shooting at a man in a parachute, I will shoot you myself." Stigler later commented, "To me, it was just like they were in a parachute. I saw them, and I couldn't shoot them down."[16]​

If the Bf-109 has a .50 cal through the radiator, wouldn't that render it unserviceable, and unable to take off to chase Ye Olde Pub, as Stigler writes? I'm not sure how you do a combat takeoff in a water-cooled aircraft that can't hold any water.

I do believe Charlie Brown I think a Bf-109 really did approach his bomber, but when the top turret tracked toward it, the 109 departed.

Brown was struggling to return to base, and a 109 came up, looked him over, and departed likely because it was low on ammo or fuel. Stigler had been up earlier but his aircraft was critically damaged and there is no evidence of any kind that he took off and flew after Ye Olde Pub.

It's not in his logbook, and it was never reported or commented on by anyone else in his unit. Obviously Stigler wouldn't mention the fact that he spared an enemy bomber as that would get him in trouble since that would be seen as not doing your job, but why is there no report of him even taking off for this mission? Surely Stigler or someone else would have reported Stigler taking off?

This is very controversial of course, but there are statements in Stigler's account which just don't add up. And when you combine this with his history of lying about claims, it doesn't look good.

Ultimately, maybe Stigler is telling the truth about the B-17 incident, but only if these questions can be answered:

1. How did Stigler take off in an aircraft with a .50 cal in the radiator when this would make it unserviceable?

2. Why is there no record of Stigler taking off anywhere?

I am open to being corrected about anything, and will definitely believe Stigler if someone can explain this. I am just skeptical at the moment.

Thanks

 

[CHen10]

Fame money birds (female ones) medals. Standing among peers etc etc etc.
A lot of early luftwaffe aces where seen as rock stars. Like Galland Molders Marseille etc.

Look here and you will find plenty od reason why a 20 year old might not play fair.

eBay: Airwar ww2 The Pilots.

WWII RAF Battle of Britain Spitfire fighter ace Pat Jamie Jameson DSO DFC*signed | eBay English

ww2aircraft.net

That is probably the best explanation

 

[Greg Boeser]

The Germans had a name for it: Halsweh.
An ache for a ribbon around the neck.

 

[cammerjeff]

And then Franz Stigler was involved in the B-17 Charlie Brown incident. This is some interesting information:

Brown's damaged, straggling bomber was spotted by Germans on the ground, including Franz Stigler (then an ace with 27 victories), who was refueling and rearming at an airfield. He soon took off in his Messerschmitt Bf 109 G-6 (which had an American .50 BMG bullet embedded in its radiator, risking the engine overheating) and quickly caught up with Brown's plane. Through openings torn in the damaged bomber's airframe by flak and machine gun fire, Stigler was able to see the injured and incapacitated crew. To the American pilot's surprise, the German did not open fire on the crippled bomber. Stigler instead recalled the words of one of his commanding officers from JG 27, Gustav Rödel, during his time fighting in North Africa: "If I ever see or hear of you shooting at a man in a parachute, I will shoot you myself." Stigler later commented, "To me, it was just like they were in a parachute. I saw them, and I couldn't shoot them down."[16]​

If the Bf-109 has a .50 cal through the radiator, wouldn't that render it unserviceable, and unable to take off to chase Ye Olde Pub, as Stigler writes? I'm not sure how you do a combat takeoff in a water-cooled aircraft that can't hold any water.

I do believe Charlie Brown I think a Bf-109 really did approach his bomber, but when the top turret tracked toward it, the 109 departed.

Brown was struggling to return to base, and a 109 came up, looked him over, and departed likely because it was low on ammo or fuel. Stigler had been up earlier but his aircraft was critically damaged and there is no evidence of any kind that he took off and flew after Ye Olde Pub.

It's not in his logbook, and it was never reported or commented on by anyone else in his unit. Obviously Stigler wouldn't mention the fact that he spared an enemy bomber as that would get him in trouble since that would be seen as not doing your job, but why is there no report of him even taking off for this mission? Surely Stigler or someone else would have reported Stigler taking off?

This is very controversial of course, but there are statements in Stigler's account which just don't add up. And when you combine this with his history of lying about claims, it doesn't look good.

Ultimately, maybe Stigler is telling the truth about the B-17 incident, but only if these questions can be answered:

1. How did Stigler take off in an aircraft with a .50 cal in the radiator when this would make it unserviceable?

2. Why is there no record of Stigler taking off anywhere?

I am open to being corrected about anything, and will definitely believe Stigler if someone can explain this. I am just skeptical at the moment.

Thanks

As for the bullit in the radiator, you have to remember how a radiator is built, a series of thin tubes that the coolant flows through separated by cooling fins. It is possible the bullet did not break the tubes, or damage the tanks on either end, if no coolant is leaking I can see an aggressive pilot taking off under those conditions.

But if coolant was actually leaking I agree with you he would not take off.

 

[CHen10]

As for the bullit in the radiator, you have to remember how a radiator is built, a series of thin tubes that the coolant flows through separated by cooling fins. It is possible the bullet did not break the tubes, or damage the tanks on either end, if no coolant is leaking I can see an aggressive pilot taking off under those conditions.

But if coolant was actually leaking I agree with you he would not take off.

I suppose we could give him the benefit of the doubt and say the coolant wasn't leaking, allowing him to take off.

 

[BiffF15]

But this isn't overclaiming, this is straight up lying.

Yes, it appears to be lying. However, if you are the commander and need pilots what do you do? Answer, split them up and press on.

 

[Snautzer01]

Yes, it appears to be lying. However, if you are the commander and need pilots what do you do? Answer, split them up and press on.

And and this imo the main reason. There was quite some publicity made in Germany for this very succesfull group.

Would have been a thing to explain. Better make it disappear.