What if: January 1942

[Njaco]

Ok, this may have been done before but a couple What if threads here have got me thinking the past few weeks on this scenario. If this has been done, close it, lock it and give me a demerit. I'm sorry for wasting computer paper.

January 1942

Germany has NOT invaded Russia.
Instead, Hitler had decided that it would be far more effective to use the sub-human Russians as slave-type and drain, if he could, its resources for Germany. He also realizes that with the entrance of the US it won't be long before the US and UK are on the shores of France and he doesn't want a two-front war. Russia is far larger than what he believes his army can conquer, with them spread out across Erurope and Africa. With Japan now in the war, he can cultivate a two front war on Russia at a later time if he can dull Stalin in a sense of some security while planning with the Japanese to strike from China and Mongolia. He has achieved this with a new pact with Russia, similar to 1939 but bringing oil, metal, ores and other needed items from Russia in exchange for what the Russians believe are new designs of war machines and elite training from German advisors.

So the question is what happens in the next 3 years?

Is France invaded?
Is North Africa left to wither for lack of material and men?
Does Rommel make it to the Suez and beyond?
Does German tank design improve without knowledge of the KV-1 or T-34?
Does the Luftwaffe finally get a long-range bomber?
What happens in the Air War over Europe?
Is there Peace accords with UK and US or a fight to end the war?

So much to play with. Any thoughts?

 

[Parmigiano]

Spring 1943 : uncle Josif take advantage that Adolf's army is busy westwards with US and UK and invades east europe and jugoslavia, then eventually continue with Oesterreich, Hungary and Germany.

Winston may consider to change priority and side with Adolf against the reds, USA would not agree because of japan in Axis and of the Jews question: interesting scenario

In any case France and Germany would had been the main battlefield.

Italy, if they were smart, would had sent everybody to f___off and place all possible resources to defend the Alps, the only hope to keep disaster outside the country (unlikely that with the mess in north europe somebody would make a priority to invade Italy from the south)
Since they were idiots, they would probably had followed the Germans.

 

[DBII]

I agree, Stalin would have attacked. The Communist thought was always enemy's will not keep treadies and friends do not need them. He always know they would be fighting German. The Nationalist and Communist never got along.

DBII

 

[Njaco]

But would Stalin have the guts after Finland to take on something like Germany. And I threw in that Hitler was planning this, just not so soon along with the help of Japan. Devious plans for sure, but would they be implemented before 1945? What would happen in between?

And I'm trying to keep this in a Nazi frame of mind, that to pretend friends and use their resources while planning to strike when stronger.

 

[DBII]

I think Stalin would have used the time to stockpile weapons. The two country's political theory demanded the destruction of the other. It was just a matter of when and who would pull the trigger first. The communist are more willing to wait for an advantage while Hitler was implusive.

DBII

 

[Thorlifter]

So Hitler stays out of Russia, that means he can concentrate on attacking France and going southeast into Romania and Turkey for the oil fields. If he was smart, he should also stay out of Africa and use Rommel to invade France, then assault Britain.

However, at that point, Stalin would come into Poland and Yugoslavia and poise themselves to invade Germany. If Hitler could take down Britain quickly via an invasion, then and only then would he attack Russia sitting on their eastern border.

 

[Lucky13]

What if Stalin got first to the oil fields....

 

[Thorlifter]

Well, Njaco stated Hitler would arrange a trade with Russia, supplies for training. I'm sure Hitler would love to be controlling them, but if he could still obtain crude, steel, coal, and other vital materials, he would work with that.

 

[Njaco]

Well, thats the question.

Would Rommel, now reinforced as the only active front, be able to push to the Middle East and secure oil fields there? Would there be a need to go to the Caucasus? And I threw in the pact with Russia suppling oil, so is there a need?

Remember by 1942;
France is occuppied
Norway is occuppied
Belgium is occuppied
Denmark is occuppied
The Netherlands are occuppied
Greece is occuppied
Crete is occuppied
Yugoslavia is occuppied

What happens to Malta?

I was wondering with the reduction of forces needed for Russia, what would next be the hotbed? I agree that Russia and Germany are not exactly partners but there is a cooling period and it is not a priority at this time.

Just reread Thors post....Would Hitler invade England?...successfully?

 

[Konigstiger205]

Well if they do the same mistakes and the Luftwaffe screws up again I think Britain would be safe and sound...if that is the case then they will probably wait until U.S. bring troops and equipment necessary for the invasion.But then again maybe Germany organize its Kreigsmarine and mans a successful invasion on Britain...

 

[Thorlifter]

And that was my point. If Rommel wasn't busy playing in the big sand box, wouldn't using him to land on England be the first choice for him to be used? If not, moving him southeast would be. But as Njaco pointed out, with Russia supplying oil, there wouldn't be a need to have him go after the oil fields. That leaves one direction. Have Rommel go after England and if you needed another action in another direction, remember you would still have Heinz Guderian to command it.

The blitz, luftwaffe, kreigmarine, and Rommel. Sure would make an interesting scenario to invade England.


HEY THIS IS MY 1000th post! Yea, I win a cookie.

 

[Njaco]

 

[The Basket]

The Germans should have tried to knock UK out of war before invasion of Russia.

The German Navy was never strong enough to invade UK. And would always have to give control of the seas to the RN. Battle of Britain round 2 in 1942 would have been an eye opener with the Fw190 involved.

But Hitler invaded Russia for more than economic or military reasons.
He hated communists and the jews and the slavs and believed Moscow was the base for all. He wanted to invade because it was the National Socialist thing to do. He couldn't help himself.
Maybe UK was at war but we weren't his ideological enemy or the demons of his dreams. Stalin was. The Soviets were weak in 41 so why not have a bash? Before they get strong and invade first....

 

[Njaco]

I'm not ruling out an attack by Hitler, just not in the historic timeframe. Russia would be stronger but wouldn't also Germany? And I envision an agreement with Japan to take on Russia along its borders at the same time as a German attack.

But what would be the strengths? Tanks? Would design be as advanced without real-time trials and experience? Would the T-34 matter in German tank design?

Would the Luftwaffe finally come to terms with the Ural program and develope a machine to take on the depths of Russia or even the US?

Any thoughts?

 

[The Basket]

The Ural bomber would need a long range escort fighter and very good navigation equipment to work. Soviet fighters like the MiG-3 would have had a good go at em so the Ural bomber concept doesn't work for me.

Where is the long range fighter and when was navigation good enough to fly at night over the steppes....

German tanks like the Panther come out of experience against the Soviets. Without this would they have built the Tiger and Panther? They Believed the Mk IV was big enough.

The war would have been won if the Germans freed the Soviets from tyranny rather than create a new one. That is where they lost and no amount of tanks and bombers could make it up.

 

[Captn javy Wilson]

I have faith in our abilities, but I think it would have came close, so close that we were fighting in america

 

[Njaco]

True, true. I'm just trying to get an idea of what everyone thinks would be the next step.

I agree with your take on the Panther. I was thinking about that very thing.

 

[syscom3]

Germany never did have the capabilities to invade England after the spring of 1940. Reread te numerous comments about it.

Hitler would always keep a sizable force on his eastern borders simply because treaty or no treaty..... he wasnt going to trust Stalin, and vice versa.

Without the eastern front hogging resources, the Germans would successfully attack and hold the eastern med cutting GB out of its colonies.

 

[Njaco]

Personnally, I would think he would focus on Malta first. Secure that and then on to Alexandria!

Sys, what would be a sizable force for the border? I think many divisions and resources would be freed or operations elsewhere.

 

[Lucky13]

If he wanted steel, he could just as well have gone for sweden and our high quality steel....then he'd have the whole peninsula to himself. And if he decided to attack Russia later on, he could do it on two fronts....