What if the Me210 was operational in 1942?

[wiking85]

There was no need for a light bomber at 1942 and forward for the LW.
There was a need for a capable long range escort fighter to escort the LW bomber or anti ship a/c's at the Mediterranean, the Atlanrtic, Norway and Bay of Biscay, also for a fast recon and an a/c what was able to intercept a Moussie at day and night.
Where is the f.. need for a light bomber?

The Me210/410 had a bigger internal bomb bay than the Ju88, was cheaper, lighter, and faster. It filled all the roles the Ju88 played beter except as a medium bomber (though the Ju88 was way too vulnerable for that by 1944 anyway and needed to be replaced in 1943 by the Ju288 ). The Ju88-S was alright as a medium bomber, but suffered from having externally mounted bombs. The Me410 was a superior speed bomber to the Ju88 in any configuration, which was the Ju88's intended role in the first place, though it was forced to become a medium bomber by circumstances in 1940-44 and the failure of the Bomber B project.

So for what it was the Me210/410 would have pretty much replaced the Ju88/188 after 1942, as it did almost everything better than the outdated 1935 design of the Ju88.

 

[wiking85]

Amen. Don't expect an outstanding long range day fighter aircraft to excel at every mission the Luftwaffe performs.

Fw-187 was perfect for bomber escort and long range recon. Probably also great for daytime interception of enemy bombers. Leave well enough alone.

By 1944/45 the answer for bomber destruction was the Me262, not the Me410. Also the Do335 would have and should have taken over from the Me410 in most ways by 1945 until a sufficient jet powered bomber existed.

 

[davebender]

I agree but that isn't the issue.

Me-210C could have entered mass production by mid 1942. At least a year before U.S. heavy bombers became a major concern. So interception of heavy bombers during daytime should not have been considered as a possible Me-210C mission.

I would expect Me-210C to get the relatively small mission for air defense of Bay of Biscay ILO JU-88C. They get to slug it out with RAF Beaufighters and ASW bombers. Me-210C has endurance required for this mission and it's probably more then a match for 1942 versions of Beaufighter.

 

[wiking85]

I agree but that isn't the issue.

Me-210C could have entered mass production by mid 1942. At least a year before U.S. heavy bombers became a major concern. So interception of heavy bombers during daytime should not have been considered as a possible Me-210C mission.

I would expect Me-210C to get the relatively small mission for air defense of Bay of Biscay ILO JU-88C. They get to slug it out with RAF Beaufighters and ASW bombers. Me-210C has endurance required for this mission and it's probably more then a match for 1942 versions of Beaufighter.

If the design was right from the get-go, then it would enter combat in April 1942 and production in late 1941.

 

[DonL]

Sure, the Bf 110 was a better fighter than the Me 210.
Don, with all respect, but I think you are missing my point. I am saying that the Me 210/410 design should have been the standard light bomber/nightfighter/recon/Zerstorer of the Luftwaffe instead of producing both Bf 110, Me 410 and Ju 88. War economics dictate that standardisation of production hugely increases production. Plus, it simplifies logistics and maintenance.

And I did say that none of them are good against other fighter aircraft. But I do remember seeing what the Me 410 was able to do against the B-17s when caught without escort fighters. In one sortie, 10 were shot down without any Me 410 losses. I assume that your response to that is that this is useless when the P-51s appear and I will agree with you. But up to early 1944, the Me 210/410 would have been very succesful. This is an issue of concept: the heavy fighter was on its way out. But we cannot state that the LW should have expected American fighter planes flying all the way to Berlin.

This is one single duty where the ME 410 was average to good, but nothing what the FW 190A Sturmgruppen couldn't do with only one engine.
The main duty would be, what the ME 110 did from 1941 till 1943 at daylight, heavy fighter and escort fighter with less performance then the ME 110 and the Moussie and the Beaufighter as superior opponents as heavy fighter. So you have said it in your post, the ME 210 was worst as a fighter then the ME 110, what will be the results as heavy fighter and escort fighters over the several oceans?

No Ju 88G6 with Jumo 213E engines was ever built, so its maximum speed is pure conjecture. I know an unarmed Ju 88S with Jumo 213A engines could reach 611 km/h.

Sorry typo from me Jumo 213A: Speed 625 km/h without MW 50, radar antenna and flame damper
Source: Flugzeug Handbuch Junkers Ju 88 G6

I fail to see what is absurd about it. Equivalent to the Me 210 would be the Ju 88C which never reached 500 km/h. The Me 210 had a top speed of 565 kmh, equal to that of the Bf 110F (570 kmh) but would not have needed external fuel tanks like the Bf 110, thereby making it ultimately faster than both the Bf 110F and Ju 88C. So again, is this really that absurd?

Here is something to debate.
First we have to estimate some performance datas.

B110F2 mit DB601F 2x1350ps
top speed: 570km/h
climb: 6000 m in 9 min
6,75t takeoff weight as Zerstörer

Me210A-1 mit DB601F 2x1350ps
top speed: 565km/h
climb: 6000m in 13 Minuten
9,69t takeoff weight as Zerstörer

Bf110G-2 mit DB605B 2x1450ps
top speed 595km/h in 6100m
climb: 6000 m in 8 min
7,79 t takeoff weight as Zerstörer

Me210Ca-1 mit DB605B 2x1450ps
top speed 580 km/h in 6500m
climb: 6000m in 11,5 min
9,706t takeoff weight as Zerstörer

The ME 110 nightfighters with antennas and flame damper could reach something about 520-540km/h depending on the engine (DB 601F or DB 605) so we have a speed drop about 50 km/h. If we look at the ME 210 we would have 515-530km/h as a nightfighter.
This is not that much away from the 480km/h of the Ju88 C-6 with antennas and flame damper.
Source: Flugzeug Handbuch Junkers Ju 88 C-6.
The Ju 88 C-6 could carry with "Schräge Musik" 2900Liter internal fuel and had the heavier arnament.
I concede that the ME 210 would be better then the ME 110 through arnament and range and better to the Ju 88 C-6 through speed.
We will come back to this issue later, but I want to say that the ME 210 would be outclassed at every specification from a Ju 88 with Jumo 213A engines and the further development of the G series.

I was more seeing it as a tactical bomber. As a strategical bomber both were insufficient. But what I do know is that the Me 210 would be able to defend itself better than the Ju 88A.

I agree partly, because the Ju 88 was an amazing anti ship a/c, was also capable to 100% diving and what is to me essential it has more range and load capacity as the ME 210 and would be equal at speed with external racks.
Also I want to advise that Junkers was the much more sophisticated a/c factory and I have serious doubts that Messerschmitt would be able to produce 15000 ME 210/410.

Definitely not. The Fw 187 was a light twin-engined fighter. It did not have sufficient room to house both radar and radar operator and a strong armament. It was a good fighter aircraft but definitely not worth the cost of two engines. The only advantage it had over the Bf 109 was its range. No one in 1939 expected that would be a problem just one year later over the coast of Britain.

Sorry Civettone with all respect here you are wrong.
My source is: Focke-Wulf Fw 187. Der vergessene Hochleistungsjäger: Amazon.de: Dietmar Hermann, Peter Petrick: Bücher

I want to mention, that this book is basing on primary sources from the RLM and Focker Wulf.

1. Page 42: The FW 187 V4 (first twin seater) was developed as heavy fighter, destroyer and the primary goal as nightfighter
RLM record from 21.12. 1937 development as nightfighter and order as nightfighter (FW 187 V4, the base of all 4 A0 preproduction a/c's)
The Fw 187 V4 and the 4 A0 preproduction a/c''s had absolutely the same radio equipment then the Bf 110 and the FW 187 V6 was equiped with 4 x MG 151. Also I want to mention that the FW 187 V2-V3 and V4 and V6 were the RLM test carrier for the new MG 151 and all a/c's were equiped with different setups.

2. Page 103
The RLM was interested for a FW 187 as destroyer and nightfighter at May 1942. At 20 July FW received an official order to deveolp the FW 187 as destroyer and nightfighter with DB 605 engines. This order had priority 2 at the FW factory, even a higher priority then the high altitude project FW 190 C. At August 1942 FW released the official specification of the FW 187 C destroyer and nightfighter basing on the FW 187 A0 and the Prototype FW 187 V5 which was flying from 1939 to 1942 with DB 601 engines.

Official specification:

Fw 187 - destroyer/nightfighter from 1942

Wingspan: 15,3
Wing area: 30 qm
Length: 12,45
crew: 2 (200 kg)
empty weight: 5600 kg
take off weight: 8200 kg (with 1 x 1000 kg Bombe)
engine: DB 605
estimated range with internal fuel: 1200 km
estimated range with internal fuel and 900 Liter drop tank: 2100km

Performance:
682 kmh at 7.000m altitude (at 6.620 kg), 658 kmh at 7.000 m with 1000 kg bomb capacity at external racks
547 kmh (at 6.620 kg)at SL
climb rate at SL: 13,0 m/s at 8.200kg (with 1000kg bomg capacity) , 18,0 m/s bei 6.620 kg
climb: 6000m in 5,7 Minuten (with 6.620 kg),
armament:
4 x 151 / 20 with 250 bullets each - fixed to the front
2 x 131 with 450 bullets each - as "Schräge Musik"
1 x MG 81 with 750 bullets - flexible to the back
in summaryt: weapons 392 kg; munition 306 kg)
loading:
maximal 2.000 kg
1 x 1000 kg + 2 x 500 kg or
1 x 1000 kg + 4 x 250 kg or
10 x 50 kg bzw. 10 x AB 23 / 24

If we look at the official specification of the FW 187, it would be at 630 Km/h with antenna and flame damper and around 600-610 km/h with antenna, flame damper and external drop tanks for 2100km range.
To be very strict here, I don't favorite the FW 187 as the only nightfighter of the LW, between the the Me 110/ Ju 88 C-6 and the Ju 88 G6, but to my opinion the FW 187 as a tandem nightfighter with the Ju 88 C-6, would be much better then the combination ME 110/Ju 88 C-6 or only the ME 210 as the only nightfighter. The FW 187 nightfighter could intercept all enemy intruder, hunt Moussie nightfighter, could be a nightfighter intruder to GB.
Also it would be the much better escort fighter,daylight recon, light bomber with a 1000kg bomb and the speed of roundabout 650 km/h and night intruder, also it could intercept Moussies which couldn't any LW a/c at daylight.

@ Civettone

To my opinion the combination of the FW 187 and Ju 88 in service (1939/1940) would be much much much better then only the ME 210/410 in service since 1942.

 

[pattle]

Regardless of how good the Me410 was at destroying unescorted B17's and B24's the fact remains that eventually they were escorted and the USAAF was always going to realise the need for escorts with or without large numbers of Me410's to prove the point and once the escorts appeared the Me410 was just hopeless. The Luftwaffe had much better aircraft on the drawing board that could have fulfilled the roles suggested for the Me 410 such as purpose built night fighters, jet fighters, jet bomber/ recon planes, Ju388 and Ta 152, they should have put their resources into building these rather than the Me410.

 

[DonL]

There were some 109 nightfighters which had the specific task of intercepting Mossies.. the LW need more of these 109's, radar guided, throughout western Europe. I feel the need was strong for light bombers, like the Me 210. The could have adopted night bombing missions. They were small and nimble enough to get in and out. Granted there would be some losses but that's the cost of war.

Do you have some source about Bf 109 nightfighter?

To my knowledge not even a single Bf 109 was ever developed as a nightfighter with radar antenna.
Only FW 190A and ME 262 were the only singleseater a/c's of the LW with antenna and nightfighter capacity.

The only Bf 109 as nightfighter were the "Wilde Sau" fighter without any radar and only capable to fight with the help of the AA spotlight over major citys.
The only BF 109 Moussie hunter to my knowledge, are daylight fighters with GM1 intoduced at the end of 1941 beginning 1942 with very little success.

 

[wiking85]

Regardless of how good the Me410 was at destroying unescorted B17's and B24's the fact remains that eventually they were escorted and the USAAF was always going to realise the need for escorts with or without large numbers of Me410's to prove the point and once the escorts appeared the Me410 was just hopeless. The Luftwaffe had much better aircraft on the drawing board that could have fulfilled the roles suggested for the Me 410 such as purpose built night fighters, jet fighters, jet bomber/ recon planes, Ju388 and Ta 152, they should have put their resources into building these rather than the Me410.

In the 1942-early 1944 period the Me210/410 is good because of taking on the roles of multiple aircraft, thus expanding production through standardization, while increasing survivability of some aircraft in certain roles (namely the bombing role, ground attack, maybe bomber destroyer thanks to heavier armament, and heavy fighter for bay of Biscay fighting). It would have also allowed the outdated Bf110 to retire on time, while allowing the Ju88 to focus on the roles it did best and perhaps letting the improved night fighter version to appear earlier.

Beyond that hopefully it saves pilots in the long run by increasing the survivability of their aircraft and increasing the number of aircraft to fly, thus allowing more pilots to rotate out of combat and not have to fly fatigued machines, thus reducing accidents and those losses. Beyond that, it then reduces the panicked actions of the RLM in decision making, and hopefully creates room in production and planning for more rational phasing in of new types once the Me210/410 becomes outmoded. By 1944 it would hopefully be phased out in favor of better aircraft for its functions, while being retained and enhanced for its remaining roles (tactical bombing IMHO).

 

[davebender]

Long range recon and light bomber roles require at least 200 aircraft per month. The entire production of a relatively large aircraft factory. You won't gain additional economy of scale by producing Me-210C at additional factory complexes.

 

[DonL]

In the 1942-early 1944 period the Me210/410 is good because of taking on the roles of multiple aircraft, thus expanding production through standardization, while increasing survivability of some aircraft in certain roles (namely the bombing role, ground attack, maybe bomber destroyer thanks to heavier armament, and heavy fighter for bay of Biscay fighting). It would have also allowed the outdated Bf110 to retire on time, while allowing the Ju88 to focus on the roles it did best and perhaps letting the improved night fighter version to appear earlier.

I disagree the LW had enough bomber aircrafts. Ju 88, He 111, Do 217, Do 215/17, HS 123, HS 129, ME 110 with external racks.
Also you totaly underestimate the loading of a twin seat FW 187.

Beyond that hopefully it saves pilots in the long run by increasing the survivability of their aircraft and increasing the number of aircraft to fly, thus allowing more pilots to rotate out of combat and not have to fly fatigued machines, thus reducing accidents and those losses. Beyond that, it then reduces the panicked actions of the RLM in decision making, and hopefully creates room in production and planning for more rational phasing in of new types once the Me210/410 becomes outmoded. By 1944 it would hopefully be phased out in favor of better aircraft for its functions, while being retained and enhanced for its remaining roles (tactical bombing IMHO).

I totaly disagree, because the performance of the ME 210 was worse to the ME 110 and it would suffer much more losses then the ME 110 at any daylight mission.

 

[altsym]

Do you have some source about Bf 109 nightfighter?

To my knowledge not even a single Bf 109 was ever developed as a nightfighter with radar antenna.
Only FW 190A and ME 262 were the only singleseater a/c's of the LW with antenna and nightfighter capacity.

The only Bf 109 as nightfighter were the "Wilde Sau" fighter without any radar and only capable to fight with the help of the AA spotlight over major citys.
The only BF 109 Moussie hunter to my knowledge, are daylight fighters with GM1 intoduced at the end of 1941 beginning 1942 with very little success.

Sorry, ground radar guided. 1./NJGr 10 Moskito hunter as flown by Friedrich-Karl Müller was pretty succesful, 109's of 2./Erg.JG 2, BF 109G-6(14?)/ASN of 4./NJG 11, sported the FuG 217 Neptun antenna's on the fuselage wings. I think they would have been more successful if they utilized these types of aircraft more.

 

[pattle]

I think the thing with the Me410 was that it only really existed to justify the whole Me110 and Me210 program.

 

[wuzak]

Sorry, ground radar guided. 1./NJGr 10 Moskito hunter as flown by Friedrich-Karl Müller was pretty succesful, 109's of 2./Erg.JG 2, BF 109G-6(14?)/ASN of 4./NJG 11, sported the FuG 217 Neptun antenna's on the fuselage wings. I think they would have been more successful if they utilized these types of aircraft more.

Define "pretty successful".

 

[altsym]

Define "pretty successful".

 

[davebender]

Provide DB603 engine program with proper funding. DB603 engine enters mass production during 1941.

DB603 powered Ju-188 replaces Ju-88 during 1942.

The new Junkers bomber version will have a proper bomb bay. Otherwise Me-410A will get light bomber contract and former Ju-88 plants will license build the Me-410. I think that message will cause desired Ju-188 design change.

If DB603 powered Ju-188 meets specifications then Me-410A design gets shelved. Just one more possibly good aircraft that never enters mass production.

Me-110 night fighter production will end when Ju-188G night fighter variant enters mass production.

 

[wuzak]

And are all those Mosquitoes?

As far as I can tell, he got one Mosquito.

 

[DonL]

Provide DB603 engine program with proper funding. DB603 engine enters mass production during 1941.

DB603 powered Ju-188 replaces Ju-88 during 1942.

The new Junkers bomber version will have a proper bomb bay. Otherwise Me-410A will get light bomber contract and former Ju-88 plants will license build the Me-410. I think that message will cause desired Ju-188 design change.

If DB603 powered Ju-188 meets specifications then Me-410A design gets shelved. Just one more possibly good aircraft that never enters mass production.

Me-110 night fighter production will end when Ju-188G night fighter variant enters mass production.

You are dreaming and far from realistic and I have told you this more then one time!
The realistic mass production for a capable DB 603 was 1942 and introduction to frontline fighters at beginning 1943.
You should stay on the facts and the realistic technical capable possibilitys.

 

[mhuxt]

I'm pretty sure the Mossie claimed by Muller actually escaped, assuming he made his claim on 23 August 1944.

 

[altsym]

And are all those Mosquitoes?

As far as I can tell, he got one Mosquito.

30 night victories ( and three unconfirmed) claimed in 52 missions. Pretty successful. There should be one Moskito in there somewhere

 

[CORSNING]

To answer the original question dramatically. The Mosquito project would have been stepped up and......well that would be that.