What if the Me210 was operational in 1942?

[Civettone]

This has nothing to do with the concerns of pilots. Safe and relatively easy handling were pre-requisites of a night fighter of this era. From 1939-45 the Nachtjagd suffered 4,800 aircraft destroyed or damaged 10%-60% in action and 6,200 to other causes, mainly accidents. Well over half the losses were not as a result of enemy action.

If so many were destroyed in accidents, I guess they did not really take easy handling in consideration, did they? My point is that everyone wants an easy-to-fly and -maintain aircraft. But eventually docile flying planes are replaced by more tricky hotrods. Or do you think a Eurofighter is as easy as a Spitfire? Or again, what was to be the definite Luftwaffe nightfighter? The Me 262. Do you think that was easy to land at night? Fact of the matter is that the Me 410 was not as easy to fly as the Ju 88, but it was considered to be good enough to be put into production. And why not, its performance was clearly superior to that of the Ju 88.

The difficult handling characteristics of the Me 410 (Brown's description was "knife edge") made it far less preferable as a night fighter than other types and this is what Von Lossberg was stating

Be careful about these opinions. Brown may have been negative about the Me 410. He is also the guy who said the Swordfish was the best torpedo bomber of WW2. On the Me 210 and 410, there were also German pilots who were enthusiastic about them. Kaufmann for instance, he even liked the original Me 210A!

Also, you mention this book from Mankau. I don't have any of my books with me, but here is what it says on the book description: "More powerful engines and a number of design changes saw this aircraft produced from 1943 to 1944 under the designation of Me 410, and as such the type gave an excellent accounting of itself in service with the Luftwaffe. " And yet, you use this book to criticize the Me 410.

The Me 410 had some heavy weight political backing but most at the business end, with the notable exception of Galland, didn't want it.

All this talk about political motives ... unfounded. I have heard more stories than I can bear. Now on Messerschmitt, then on Junkers, next Heinkel, ... Conspiracy theories are usually the result of inadequate knowledge of the subject. A bit like how man believed thunder meant the gods were fighting.

Kris

 

[Civettone]

Me-210C / Me-410A would require three years to achieve similar production efficiency. The delay would be fatal for 1942 Germany. They have no choice but to keep making dirt cheap Ju-88 variants.

IMO Ju-88 was a great airframe (except for lame bomb bay). It just needs more powerful engines during 1942 to remain competitive.

The Me 210 was designed with ease of production in mind. The Ju 88 was criticized and almost shelved for being too difficult to produce. They did manage to simplify the production and yes, large scale production did enhance production. There is no reason to assume that the Me 410 needed another 3 years of production optimalisation. The learning curve is a valuable guideline but it is not a set rule. Its impact depends from product to product. Also, I do not know any figures on manhours for the Me 410 production, but I can assume it was easier to produce due to its production-minded design and the fact that it was smaller and lighter than the Ju 88.
Also, the Ju 88 did get the best engines. It received BMW 801Ds and Jumo 213As. Result was the Ju 188A-F and Ju 88G, all of which stayed well under the 600 kmh mark. The Ju 88 night fighter was a stopgap and only stayed in service because its successors, the He 219 - underpowered - and Ju 388 - no engines - failed. The Ta 154 was to be the successor of the Bf 110. Also a failed design. In hindsight, they should have gone for the easy solution: the Me 410. But in 1943 they could not have foreseen the problems with the He 219, Ju 388 or Ta 154.
Btw, the Me 410 as a night fighter with two radar sets, aerials and Schraege Musik had a projected speed loss of 20 kmh. So that would mean a max speed above 600 kmh. It was the only one which could replace both the Bf 110 and Ju 88 as nighfighter. Instead, the RLM went for a dual solution: a point-defence NF and a long-range/intruder NF. A waste of resources.

For these reasons, I still believe the Me 210C/410A augmented by the only true strategic bomber: the He 177 - once operational, until then the He 111 and Do 217 - would be the most cost-effective solution. And that is what I meant when I said it was a potential war winner: in WW2 the combination of quality and quantity won the war.
Kris

 

[stona]

If so many were destroyed in accidents, I guess they did not really take easy handling in consideration, did they? My point is that everyone wants an easy-to-fly and -maintain aircraft. But eventually docile flying planes are replaced by more tricky hotrods. Or do you think a Eurofighter is as easy as a Spitfire? Or again, what was to be the definite Luftwaffe nightfighter? The Me 262. Do you think that was easy to land at night? Fact of the matter is that the Me 410 was not as easy to fly as the Ju 88, but it was considered to be good enough to be put into production. And why not, its performance was clearly superior to that of the Ju 88.

Be careful about these opinions. Brown may have been negative about the Me 410. He is also the guy who said the Swordfish was the best torpedo bomber of WW2. On the Me 210 and 410, there were also German pilots who were enthusiastic about them. Kaufmann for instance, he even liked the original Me 210A!

Also, you mention this book from Mankau. I don't have any of my books with me, but here is what it says on the book description: "More powerful engines and a number of design changes saw this aircraft produced from 1943 to 1944 under the designation of Me 410, and as such the type gave an excellent accounting of itself in service with the Luftwaffe. " And yet, you use this book to criticize the Me 410.

All this talk about political motives ... unfounded. I have heard more stories than I can bear. Now on Messerschmitt, then on Junkers, next Heinkel, ... Conspiracy theories are usually the result of inadequate knowledge of the subject. A bit like how man believed thunder meant the gods were fighting.

Kris

They did take handling characteristics into account for aircraft to be operated at night, hence von Lossberg's comments. It is telling that the Me 410 was NEVER developed as a night fighter.... QED.
The possibility of developing the Me 210/410 as a night fighter was investigated by Hauptmann Werner Streib. He received three aircraft for assessment. In the end the type was killed off as a night fighter not because of its handling characteristics, but because Goering himself objected to the alterations which would be required to the canopy and nose.

If you imagine that there was no political aspect to German (or anyone else's) aircraft production you are being very naïve. It is something that I have had an interest in for thirty years and the pettiness of the political in fighting almost beggars belief.

Gernot Croneiss, I assume you know who his father was, recalled.

"Messerschmitt's position at this point in time (1942) was that it was the sole aircraft producer in the German Reich that did not stand under the direct influence of the RLM. Heinkel, for example, because of the problems with the He 177, had to go the same way. The problems with the Me 210 for the RLM were hence an opportunity to put Messerschmitt down. All this naturally took place with the full approval of Goering, who allowed Milch and Lucht a free hand to eliminate the chaos at Messerschmitt after production of the Me 210 had been stopped by order of the RLM".

Ted Oliver's, not my clunky translation!

Milch's personal antipathy to Willi Messerschmitt is well documented and dates back to his time at Lufthansa. Don't imagine that this did not influence the relationship between the two men and Messerschmitt AG and the RLM.
One of the results of the Me 210 debacle was the removal of Messerschmitt from his directorial duties and Croneiss' elevation as chairman of the board. Croneiss was also Betriebsfuhrer (works head) of the AG and GmbH amongst other things.


Cheers

Steve

 

[Civettone]

Don't get me wrong. All this inter-service fighting and scheming, I know that existed. But I would not call this political. I have heard stories about Milch hating Messerschmitt because his friend died on board of a Messerschmitt? Oh please ... Also, all these stories about the Fw 187 or He 100 being rejected for again political reasons. It is this kind of reasoning that I object to and which I believe is mere speculating because of a lack of information. "Why was the He 277 not built? I don't know ... it must have been Goering who opposed it!"

There was a power struggle between companies to get the most contracts, and for instance, Willi was much better at lobbying than the others. But this happened everywhere. Fact remains that all major companies were awarded contracts from beginning of the war til the end: Heinkel, FW, Messerschmitt, Henschel, B&V, Arado ...

As to the Me 410 ... I think the Me 410 was never used as a night fighter because the Ta 154 and He 219 or Ju 388 were destined to become the next night fighters. There was not even a prototype of a night fighter. Not a single Me 410 received a radar set. KG 51 did carry out succesful nocturnal intruder missions over England in 1944. What does your book say about Goering's motives to forbid testing the Me 410 as a night fighter?

Kris

 

[Denniss]

A total of 302 Me 210 were built by Dunai Repulogepgyar RT near Budapest and about 100 , much less than half, seem to have ended up with the Luftwaffe.

Hungarians built a total of 377 Me 210 of which 105 were delivered to the Luftwaffe.

 

[stona]

Hungarians built a total of 377 Me 210 of which 105 were delivered to the Luftwaffe.

Depends whose figures you quote. I agree with the 105 (give or take two or three), the other one is debateable. I think the 302 is from Peter Schmoll who quotes a Romanian researcher whose name evades me at the moment. In any case it's not worth arguing over the detail

Cheers

Steve

 

[stona]

As to the Me 410 ... I think the Me 410 was never used as a night fighter because the Ta 154 and He 219 or Ju 388 were destined to become the next night fighters. There was not even a prototype of a night fighter. Not a single Me 410 received a radar set. KG 51 did carry out succesful nocturnal intruder missions over England in 1944. What does your book say about Goering's motives to forbid testing the Me 410 as a night fighter?

Kris

The RLM had no idea what it wanted as a night fighter. It changed opinion with bewildering frequency. There were numerous programmes running concurrently. Even DonLs' beloved Fw 187 nearly rose like Lazarus from the dead to fulfil the role.

Goering didn't forbid testing of the Me 410 as a night fighter. There was an official assessment of its potential in the role. I have no idea if Goering was aware of this or not. Streib's report included the need for extensive modifications to the nose and canopy which Goering vetoed at a meeting with Lucht, Milch and others at the RLM.

Cheers

Steve

 

[davebender]

I don't doubt it. However even a well designed new aircraft type needs at least a year to work up production process to full efficiency. 1942 Germany cannot afford to immediately discontinue Ju-88. Nor can they afford to discontinue Me-110 night fighter as Me-210C had no night fighter variant production ready.

Hungary really liked Me-210C. Smartest thing might have been to assist that nation in building a decent size Me-210C factory during 1941. Capacity of at least 100 aircraft per month. Let Hungarian factory work out Me-210C production glitches during 1942. Meanwhile Luftwaffe has a year to evaluate aircraft performance and, if desired, design Me-210 night fighter variant. Then 1943 Germany can, if desired, retool some Me-110 and/or Ju-88 factories for Me-210C.

 

[mhuxt]

KG 51 did carry out succesful nocturnal intruder missions over England in 1944.

KG 51 also picked up a small number (on the order of half a dozen, IIRC, but going from memory here so caveat emptor) of night-time kills over occupied Europe, but as you say not using radar, more like Wilde Sau.

 

[Civettone]

I don't doubt it. However even a well designed new aircraft type needs at least a year to work up production process to full efficiency. 1942 Germany cannot afford to immediately discontinue Ju-88. Nor can they afford to discontinue Me-110 night fighter as Me-210C had no night fighter variant production ready.

At a certain point, the Ju 88 was going to be replaced. In the end, it stayed in production through its improved version til the end. Same story for the Bf 109, or on the Allied side, the Spitfire, LaGG-3/5/7 or Yak-1/3/9, or for the Panzer III and IV. It is indeed a very difficult to choice to switch production, because it means a production loss of several months. Sure, production could start soon enough, but it will take a long time before optmum production rates are achieved.
When it comes to replacing the Ju 88 with the Me 210/410, I agree that it might not have been worthwhile. I think it would be possible in 1941, maybe in 1942, but no longer in 1943 when Ju 88 production had expanded. Up to 1944 Germany had excess production capacity, so it could start production elsewhere while keeping the old production going. Problem there is the lack of skilled workers. It needs time to train enough of them. This would have been possible up to 1942, but not in 1943/1944.

Goering didn't forbid testing of the Me 410 as a night fighter. There was an official assessment of its potential in the role. I have no idea if Goering was aware of this or not. Streib's report included the need for extensive modifications to the nose and canopy which Goering vetoed at a meeting with Lucht, Milch and others at the RLM.

Was this about the Me 210 or the Me 410? I have seen a Messerschmitt draft on the required modifications of the Me 410 and these do not include those changes. Even more weird is that the Ju 88G had a completely modified nose and canopy.

Kris

 

[davebender]

That isn't true.

1930s Germany was surprisingly slow to build weapon plants. For example Nibelungenwerk tank plant (RM 65 million. 320 vehicles per month) construction didn't begin until September 1939. DB601 engine factory at Genshagen was small (RM 20 million. 220 engines per month) until expansion began during 1940. That's why Germany had hardly any tanks worthy of the name prior to 1942 and it was impossible to build a second fighter type powered by DB601 engines during 1939.

1930s Soviet Union spent their military budget on factories to produce tanks, artillery and aircraft. 1930s Germany spent over RM 1 billion on battleships, heavy cruisers, aircraft carriers and large fleet destroyers. It's pretty obvious who got the best value for their money.

Due to stupid spending decisions during 1935 to 1938 German weapons production capacity didn't catch up with demand until 1944. By then it was too late to matter.

 

[Civettone]

No, I am very right and I have German and Allied reports to back it up. Up to early 1944 many factories only used part of their floor capacity and only employed single shifts! Also the working week was only gradually increased, I think they introduced the 60 hour week only in 1943, and even then, it was not a general measure. Also, Germany was the only country in the world with an excess capacity of jigs and tools production. Finally, there was a lack of standarisation and rationalisation which was never fully resolved due to obstruction from party leaders and Gauleiter.* Also the military did not fully understand the dynamics of war economy, and I also sense that many on this board do not fully grasp the importance of simplifying production in order to produce larger numbers. We all love to ravel on this or that fighter version with 5 mph gain in a dive or a few lbs extra boost... But war is a meat grinding slugfest: it's numbers which matter because usually there is not enough qualititve difference between weapons (though sometimes it exists).

(*This and much more you can find in for instance, Richard Overy's publications on the German war economy. Or Adam Tooze's Wages of Destruction for a compelling read. Then there is Speer's Inside the Third Reich and the USSBS reports.)

Kris

 

[delcyros]

1942.

Honestly, who wants the Me-210 debugged if You may also debug the Jumo-222a instead in this timeframe (or, alternatively accept initial 2000hp derated performance) and hence, aquire Ju288A instead to replace bf110, me-210, ju88, ju188, do-217 and he111?

The only aspect where I can imagine a Me210 will be better suited to (even against a BMW801 driven -288) is CAS. Smaller target size, more armour and sufficient front central space to mount a bigger antitank gun. You would probably prefer a Hs129 for CAS.

 

[stona]

Was this about the Me 210 or the Me 410? I have seen a Messerschmitt draft on the required modifications of the Me 410 and these do not include those changes. Even more weird is that the Ju 88G had a completely modified nose and canopy.
Kris

You tell me

Streib performed his assessments early in 1942 and reported in May 1942. The new designation Me 410 started to appear in official documents around September 1942 so strictly speaking the tests were done using three modified Me 210s.

Petrick and Stocker published loads of Messerschmitt proposals for various versions of the Me 410 in their book "Me 210/ Me 410 Hornisse". Some of them are almost ridiculous and should not be confused with actual plans for workable aircraft. They are more akin to concept drawings.
This sort of thing from slightly later.

Today we'd call then cut 'n' paste jobs!

Streib was reporting on what was actually needed by the Luftwaffe to make a workable night fighter, not what Messerschmitt was proposing. To say that there was a lack of trust between the RLM and Messerschmitt AG, particularly Messerschmitt himself, in early 1942 would be something of an understatement.

Edit. There may well have been a political aspect to Goerings objection. Despite the Luftwaffe's lack of enthusiasm for the Me 210/410 as a fast bomber Goering was very keen on this role for it.

Cheers

Steve

 

[davebender]

Problem is German chose to debug neither. 1930s Germany needs to make some production decisions and stick with them.

If DB601 / DB605 is to be primary German fighter engine then build enough engine factories to match airframe production.
If DB603 program begins then push it to completion. Otherwise DB603 program is cancelled without ordering prototypes.
If 2,000hp Jumo 222a program begins then push it to completion. Otherwise program gets cancelled without ordering prototypes.
Ditto for Me-210 / Me-410 light bomber.

 

[Denniss]

The value of 377 Me 210 built by the Hungarians originates from German Bundesarchive/RLM data. They somehow kept track of the hungarian production.
AFAIR they also built some Me 210D recons (included in the 377)

 

[Njaco]

The Ta 154 was to be the successor of the Bf 110. Also a failed design.

Civetone, why was this a failed design? The Ta 154 failed because of the landing gear (half of the prototypes were lost this way) and the other problem was the bonding glue and we know why. What about the design was a failure? It still tested out faster than the 219.

 

[stona]

It still tested out faster than the 219.

But not quick enough to intercept RAF Mosquitos, a large part of its raison d'etre

Cheers

Steve

 

[davebender]

Small numbers of pathfinder aircraft flying @ 25,000 feet would be tough to intercept at night even if flying @ 200mph.

What is this obsession with intercepting pathfinder aircraft? Getting in the bomber stream and ripping up heavy bombers was by far the most successful night fighter tactic.

 

[stona]

What is this obsession with intercepting pathfinder aircraft?

Goering was probably the only man who could have answered that question

Cheers

Steve