What if the Me210 was operational in 1942?

[mhuxt]

Only the same as Bergstrom. Victory 203, June 1943, in the Groningen area. I think that it may have been in early July, after the arrival of the specially finished and GM-1 equipped 109s but before the unit was fully operational. In either case this would indeed be ahead of the formation/designation of JG 50 of in August.

Cheers

Steve

Thanks for that - I've never been able to find anything more than "June, Gronigen", same as I've never been able to find anything approaching a loss which matches.

The claim certainly doesn't appear in the Tony Wood list, although Graf's claims later in '43 do.

 

[Aozora]

I disagree, every FW 187 built and developed further on the different DB engines (with the same radiators as the the Me 110) could intercept a Moussie day and night. It is weather a myth nor uimpossible from the hard facts we have.

Again with the theoretical performance of the Fw 187 - seems to me this subject has been chewed over, digested and regurgitated every time someone mentions "Mosquito or P-38".

Fact: the Fw 187 did not get into production, with or without various DBs.

Fact: Exactly ONE Fw 187 flew with DB601s.

Fact: Over 7,000 Mosquitos were built.

How many Mosquito bombers were shot down? 108 plus 88 written off.
How many sorties were flown by bombers, day and night over Europe? 29,963 May '43 to May '45.
How many Mosquitos were shot down by the various interceptors sent up against them? (Estimated) 80-90?
How many Fw 187 sorties against Mosquitos? 0.
How many Mosquitos were shot down by Fw 187s? Zero, nil, none, the big 0.

 

[stona]

There is no evidence that an OPERATIONAL Fw 187 fighter would have had a large enough speed advantage over a Mosquito flying at altitude to enable consistently successful interceptions.

As far as I can tell only two DB 601 powered Fw 187 were ever completed (V5 (test bed for hot cooling experiments) and V7 (originally a record attempt project, later converted to B-0, retaining the werknummer 1977) so I've no idea what you are basing your assumptions on. Neither of these would bear much resemblance to a service aircraft.

The only versions approximating service aircraft were the A-0s of the Factory Protection Staffel, some later sent to Vaerlose, and they were powered by Jumo engines and unlikely to bother a Mosquito.

Whatever the RLM ordered in July 1942 (and the RLM had decided that the Fw 187 might fulfil the roles of night fighter and high altitude interceptor once fitted with DB 605 engines) the Fw 187 programme was axed on 31st August 1942 and Focke - Wulf ordered to stop all work on the type.

Not one single aircraft was built as a result of the RLM's development contract of 20th July, actually a series of eight individual contracts. This is not strictly speaking a production order. Three mock ups were started as of about 4th August.

20th July to 31st August that's how long a glimmer of hope for the type existed.

Again I'm not sure what point you are trying to make.

Cheers

Steve

 

[wuzak]

It wasn't just a matter of having faster aircraft. The Luftwaffe had, in 1942 and 1943, aircraft that had, in theory, higher performance than Mosquito bombers and PR aircraft. But they still struggled to make interceptions.

 

[Shortround6]

To have a large number of successful intercepts you need to have a good margin of performance, a small one won't do. While 20mph is 20mph an interceptor that can do 220 vs a bomber doing 200 is still a bit different than an interceptor doing 340 vs a bomber doing 320mph. From the same distance away it takes the same time to catch the bombers but the intercept (chase) takes place over a much bigger area. Max Speed is pretty much useless until the planes get very close together. Max continuous power or 30 minutes rating speeds are more useful, but they burn fuel at a large rate. Pilots did abuse (ignore) time limits at times but that is no way to plane either an intercept network/strategy or a bombing/evasion campaign.

 

[wiking85]

There is no evidence that an OPERATIONAL Fw 187 fighter would have had a large enough speed advantage over a Mosquito flying at altitude to enable consistently successful interceptions.

As far as I can tell only two DB 601 powered Fw 187 were ever completed (V5 (test bed for hot cooling experiments) and V7 (originally a record attempt project, later converted to B-0, retaining the werknummer 1977) so I've no idea what you are basing your assumptions on. Neither of these would bear much resemblance to a service aircraft.

The only versions approximating service aircraft were the A-0s of the Factory Protection Staffel, some later sent to Vaerlose, and they were powered by Jumo engines and unlikely to bother a Mosquito.

Whatever the RLM ordered in July 1942 (and the RLM had decided that the Fw 187 might fulfil the roles of night fighter and high altitude interceptor once fitted with DB 605 engines) the Fw 187 programme was axed on 31st August 1942 and Focke - Wulf ordered to stop all work on the type.

Not one single aircraft was built as a result of the RLM's development contract of 20th July, actually a series of eight individual contracts. This is not strictly speaking a production order. Three mock ups were started as of about 4th August.

20th July to 31st August that's how long a glimmer of hope for the type existed.

Again I'm not sure what point you are trying to make.

Cheers

Steve

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/De_Havilland_Mosquito#Specifications
The 1942 Mark II Mosquito fighter version had a 366mph top speed, which given as the 1940 version of the FW187 that has been suggested having around >380 mph speed, there shouldn't be problem catching it.

In 1943 the faster bomber version appeared (Mark IV):
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/De_Havilland_Mosquito#Variants

The B Mk IV had a maximum speed of 380 mph (611 km/h), a cruising speed of 265 mph (426 km/h), ceiling of 34,000 ft (10,360 m), a range of 2,040 nm (3,280 km), and a climb rate of 2,500 ft per minute (762 m).[97]

By this point the FW187 would have had the more powerful DB605 and could beat that speed on both ends.

In October 1943 it was decided that all B Mk IVs and all B Mk IXs then in service would be converted to carry the 4,000 lb (1,812 kg) "Cookie", and all B Mk IXs built after that date were designed to allow them to be converted to carry the weapon.The B Mk IX had a maximum speed of 408 mph (656 km/h), a cruising speed of 250 mph (402 km/h), ceiling of 36,000 ft (10,970 m), a range of 2,450 nm (3,940 km), and a climb rate of 2,850 feet per minute (869 m).

Again, still catchable by a late 1943 single seat DB605 powered FW187 during the day. At night it would be a different story of course, as the FW187 is not able to match that with radar gear and a second seat.

 

[DonL]

My point is very easy and based on hard technical data's and facts!

1. The FW 187 V5 showed, that the FW 187 had absolutely no problems to absorb the bigger engines DB 601. This a/c flew for over two years without any problems at flight characteristics or g-limits. The alltime quarrel, the FW 187 was in need for a major redesign for the DB engines is simply bogus.

2. The three FW 187 A0 were flying from 1940-1944 at several places many combat missions fully equiped and armed with (4 x 7,92 MG and 2 x 2cm FF) without any problems and were stationed many years at a flight school at Denmark. So there were no problems with the a/c and it's flight characteristics and performance at combat missions.
The FW 187 A0 full equiped and armed (4 x 7,92 MG and 2 x 2cm FF):

weight 5300kg
top seed: 525 km/h at 4600m altitude
2x Jumo 210G engines (730PS each).

Please explain to me your arguments why it was possible for the Bf 110 B-G:

B110B-01 with Jumo 210G 2x730ps
top speed: 455km/h
climb: 11m/s
6,2t takeoff weight as Zerstörer

B110C1 with DB601A 2x1100ps
top speed: 540km/h
climb: 6000 m in 11 min
6,7t takeoff weight as Zerstörer

B110F2 with DB601F 2x1350ps
top speed: 570km/h
climb: 6000 m in 9 min
7,0t takeoff weight as Zerstörer

Bf110G-2 with DB605B 2x1450ps
top speed 595km/h in 6100m
climb: 6000 m in 8 min
7,79 t takeoff weight as Zerstörer

to increase it's top speed from 455km/h with Jumo engines to 540 km/h with DB 601A, to 570km/h with DB 601F, to 595 km/h with DB 605A's and a weight gain of 1500kg with normal radiotors.
So where are the technical arguments or evidences, that a FW 187 couldn't perform with the equal capacity of performance?

The engines and radiators of the FW 187A0 and Bf 110 B were equal, also the weight gain of the Bf 110 B to the Bf 110 G-2 is equal to the calculations of the FW 187 C from 1942.

To me there is absolute no technical argument, that the FW 187 couldn't do the same performance jumps as the Bf 110, or even better, because the FW 187 had the better aerodynamics as shown from the FW 187 A0 compare to the Bf 110 B with the same engines and radiators.

If we look at the Bf 110 B and FW 187 A0 and their radiator configuration, you can easy estimate, that there are the same possibilty to reduce the drag of the FW 187 as to the Bf 110 C.

for comparation the Bf 110 C

So if we look at the performance increase of the Bf 110 B to C to F to G, we can very easy estimate the performance increase of the "several developed" FW 187 and to me, there is till now, not a single technical argument or evidence, that this would be more difficult for the FW 187, more the cotradict through her much better aerodynamics!
And everyone can do the calculation on it's own, of the increased performance of the FW 187.

 

[mhuxt]

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/De_Havilland_Mosquito#Specifications
The 1942 Mark II Mosquito fighter version had a 366mph top speed, which given as the 1940 version of the FW187 that has been suggested having around >380 mph speed, there shouldn't be problem catching it.

In 1943 the faster bomber version appeared (Mark IV):
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/De_Havilland_Mosquito#Variants


By this point the FW187 would have had the more powerful DB605 and could beat that speed on both ends.


Again, still catchable by a late 1943 single seat DB605 powered FW187 during the day. At night it would be a different story of course, as the FW187 is not able to match that with radar gear and a second seat.

There would have been as good as no F.IIs over occupied territory in daylight until about April 1943, and then only under cloud cover. The Bomber and PR variants over Europe from 1941 (PR) and 1942 (Bomber) were both 380 mph or above in service.

The 1943 Bomber / PR was the IX, 408 mph, or the VIII, 413 mph.

Again, all so much woulda coulda shoulda.

 

[DonL]

Again, all so much woulda coulda shoulda.

Wrong, it based on hard technical facts and datas!

 

[wiking85]

There would have been as good as no F.IIs over occupied territory in daylight until about April 1943, and then only under cloud cover. The Bomber and PR variants over Europe from 1941 (PR) and 1942 (Bomber) were both 380 mph or above in service.

Can you provide some numbers to show that the Bomber variant had that speed in 1942 AND was operating in any sort of numbers?
Also was that speed fully decked out with bombs and fuel or without bombs?

 

[Aozora]

Wrong, it based on hard technical facts and datas!

Wrong - it based on paper projects that didn't fly, didn't reach the mock-up stage and certainly didn't catch Mosquitos, P-38s, Spitfires, Me 210s, Tiger Moths or Polikarpov Po2s.

 

[DonL]

Wrong - it based on paper projects that didn't fly, didn't reach the mock-up stage and certainly didn't catch Mosquitos, P-38s, Spitfires, Me 210s, Tiger Moths or Polikarpov Po2s.

So the FW 187 A0 didn't fly?
The FW 187 V5 didn't fly?
The Bf 110 B, Bf 110C, Bf 110F, Bf 110G-2 all didn't fly with the posted performance datas?

I'm sick to your national biases and protection of the mythical Moussie and P38!
Show me technical arguments that the FW 187 couldn't do the same performance jumps as the Bf 110.
Your argumentation is bogus on a technical base! The technical datas and flights of the FW 187 A0, V5 and Bf 110 B, Bf 110C, the Bf 110F, the Bf 110G-2 are proving the contradict!

 

[parsifal]

Again, all so much woulda coulda shoulda

.

you could add....."but didnt".

In my book that either makes the germans incredibly stupid, or, the claims being made here are bogus.

Im happy with either answer.....

 

[wiking85]

.

you could add....."but didnt".

In my book that either makes the germans incredibly stupid, or, the claims being made here are bogus.

Im happy with either answer.....

I think the incredibly stupid and lacking foresight fits the guys that made the decision perfectly: Goering and Udet. Goering was so wedded to the concept of a heavy 'destroyer' aircraft that when the FW187 couldn't be effectively shoe-horned into that role, he had no use for it and his catspaw in the Technical Branch, Udet, killed the project; its a testament to the quality of the aircraft that it soldiered on as a project despite this, but due to the pressures of war and Milch wanting to maximize existing production, rather than add in a new type, it was never to be after being passed over the first time.

 

[Aozora]

I'm sick to your national biases and protection of the mythical Moussie and P38!

Over 7,000 Mosquitos were built and 10,000 plus P-38s. Not so mythical.

How many DB605 powered Fw 187s were built? Something like -er- none. So which aircraft was mythical?

Neither the Mosquito or the P-38 need "protection", but the Fw 187 gets lots of it at every conceivable opportunity.

BTW how many aircraft did the operational Fw 187A-0s of the Industry Protection Flight shoot down in two years? One confirmed Spitfire, although one pilot claimed to have shot down several aircraft...

 

[DonL]

Where are your technical arguments?
I'm still waiting

 

[stona]

The A-0 did fly but with 528kph at 6,000m wouldn't have troubled a Mosquito which was significantly faster. It also took the Fw 187 A-0 something over ten minutes to climb to 6000m during which it would be travelling at a much lower speed whilst it's target flew away

The Fw 187 was shoe horned into the heavy fighter role, that's precisely what the A-0 was, hence two crew. V4 was the prototype for the A-0 pre-production series. In the first paragraph of specifications it is clearly defined.

"In keeping with its design role of heavy fighter............."

Even assuming that some of the projected figures, or even figures from the two DB 601 equipped test aircraft, could miraculously and for the first time in aviation history be transferred to a fully armed and equipped production version in front line service the speed advantages given would still be marginal for successful interceptions.

Since this never happened I'd suggest "woulda, shoulda, coulda........but never did" is about right.

All the rest is "sound and fury signifying nothing" as a bloke from just up the road from me once wrote.

Cheers

Steve

 

[mhuxt]

Can you provide some numbers to show that the Bomber variant had that speed in 1942 AND was operating in any sort of numbers?
Also was that speed fully decked out with bombs and fuel or without bombs?

The speed numbers come from original data sheets which Mike Williams posted on this board. Don't know what you mean by "any sort of numbers" for the 1942 variant. It equipped 105 and later 139 squadrons, so those are the numbers which the Fw 187 woulda coulda shoulda intercepted but didn't. The weight-related data are on the data sheets.

 

[DonL]

The A-0 did fly but with 528kph at 6,000m wouldn't have troubled a Mosquito which was significantly faster. It also took the Fw 187 A-0 something over ten minutes to climb to 6000m during which it would be travelling at a much lower speed whilst it's target flew away

The Fw 187 was shoe horned into the heavy fighter role, that's precisely what the A-0 was, hence two crew. V4 was the prototype for the A-0 pre-production series. In the first paragraph of specifications it is clearly defined.

"In keeping with its design role of heavy fighter............."

Even assuming that some of the projected figures, or even figures from the two DB 601 equipped test aircraft, could miraculously and for the first time in aviation history be transferred to a fully armed and equipped production version in front line service the speed advantages given would still be marginal for successful interceptions.

Since this never happened I'd suggest "woulda, shoulda, coulda........but never did" is about right.

All the rest is "sound and fury signifying nothing" as a bloke from just up the road from me once wrote.

Cheers

Steve

The next post that did not base on technical facts!
I have shown my facts and datas, with up to 100 posts here in this forum, with hard technical facts, you are doing nothing then babbling without technical arguments.
Your agenda is shown on the first passage, because that isn't the issue.

The issue at this thread was the claim, the Moussie could only be intercepted from german jet a/c's, what is simply bogus from technical hard facts.

Provide arguments rather then babbling!

 

[stona]

Provide arguments rather then babbling!

What are your figures for the A-0? I took mine from Hermann and Petrick's book. At least you can console yourself that an Fw 187 going flat out at 6,000m would be slightly faster than a cruising Mosquito.

This is of course for an aeroplane that actually flew, unlike all the paper projects you keep quoting.

Aozora, Wolfgang Stein is the only man with a confirmed victory in the Fw 187, as you say, a Spitfire.
Kurt Mehlhorn was credited with "several" victories by "Der Condor", the Focke-Wulf in house magazine, which published an obituary. It doesn't specify what he was flying when he achieved these unconfirmed victories. Hardly an authoritative source anyway!

Cheers

Steve