What if the Me210 was operational in 1942?
- Thread starter wiking85
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Most Pathfinder squadrons were equipped with heavies, though just over half of 8 Group sorties were flown by Mosquitos. 5 Group had its own Pathfinders, including Mosquitos too. Much of the "backing up" was done by aircraft in Main Force squadrons, usually Lancasters. When a master bomber was introduced to try and control and adjust the bombing over the target he almost invariably flew in a Lancaster.
The Mosquito could of course perform many other roles with relative impunity. The Mosquitos of 100 Group flew everything from radio counter measures to Serrate and intruder missions. Nuisance raids, meteorological flights and much more were also carried out by this most versatile aeroplane. This must have irritated the Luftwaffe and it seems good old Hermann. The Luftwaffe never matched it.
Then there are the day time operations. Precision raids, anti shipping, reconnaissance, the list goes on and on.
Cheers
Steve
C
The Mosquito could of course perform many other roles with relative impunity. The Mosquitos of 100 Group flew everything from radio counter measures to Serrate and intruder missions. Nuisance raids, meteorological flights and much more were also carried out by this most versatile aeroplane. This must have irritated the Luftwaffe and it seems good old Hermann. The Luftwaffe never matched it.
Then there are the day time operations. Precision raids, anti shipping, reconnaissance, the list goes on and on.
Cheers
Steve
C
davebender
1st Lieutenant
Catching Mosquitoes during daytime is a job for Me-109s and Fw-190s. And they are perfectly capable of doing so with good ground control.
They didn't enjoy much success though. By coincidence I have just been looking at the career of Herman Graf. His single victory over a Mosquito was the only one recorded by Jagdgruppe Sud/JG 50. He himself describes how on most occasions the pilots of JG 50 saw nothing but the disintegrating clouds of anti aircraft fire where a Mosquito had once been.
Intercepting a Mosquito in a Bf 109 may have been possible in theory but the practice was somewhat different.
Cheers
Steve
Civettone
Tech Sergeant
First of all, the landing gear is also part of the design. Second, the Ta 154 did not fail because of the glue issue. That is a common myth which just gets repeated in every book. It is nonsensical when you stop and think about it.
No, the Ta 154 was a lost cause. Those prototypes which were completed, were tested by a special night fighter unit (I think ErprobungsKommando 154) and was generally considered unsatisfactory. Erich will know more about this. He told me the Ta 154 had some problems, the biggest being tail heavy.
Dave, killing those pathfinders is the most important thing. What is the ultimate goal of the night defences? To shoot down bombers? No, to protect the targets. Taking out the pathfinders will significantly decrease the accuracy of the bombings. And that is what matters.
Kris
The other problem with the Mosquito was that by mid-1944 the "nuisance" raids of the Light Night Striking Force were highly effective and highly disturbing: by early 1945 Mosquitoes were attacking Berlin with 4,000 lb bombs; many Mosquitoes were flying two sorties in one night.
davebender
1st Lieutenant
I agree but unless RAF bomber losses reach unacceptable levels they will keep coming back whether they hit anything or not.
davebender
1st Lieutenant
By mid 1944 Allied ground forces were driving to Warsaw and the Rhine. Compared to that catastrophe (from German point of view) Allied bombing raids hardly mattered.
I don't know what your definition of "driving "is Dave, but D-Day was June 6, 44, and the Allies didn't cross the Rhine in force till March of 45.
Then the Russians approached Warsaw in August 44, and "regrouped" for 2 months.
Intercepting a mosquito-like aircraft on a reliable basis would've only been possible with jet-powered (and/or possibly rocket assisted) aircraft anyways. Day or night. If the Me 210 / Ta 154 / He 219 become a real success, what stops the RAF from equipping the Mosquito with Griffon engines (which were at the time barely needed for Spitfires anyways)? Just one (obvious) of many likely modifications.
More abstractly speaking: Using the same technology, it will be very hard or close ot impossible to build a plane B that can reliably intercept a plane A unless said plane A was a big blunder, which we know wasn't the case.
More abstractly speaking: Using the same technology, it will be very hard or close ot impossible to build a plane B that can reliably intercept a plane A unless said plane A was a big blunder, which we know wasn't the case.
wuzak
Captain
de Havilland did look at using the Griffon - but I am not clear as to whether it was the DH98 Mosquito or one of the Super Mosquito proposals (DH101 or DH102?).
The thinking was that the performance improvement would be minimal. So I would assume it was for a Super Mosquito.
I would think that without a bigger airframe with a bigger bomb bay the Mosquito wouldn't be able to make the most of its extra load carrying capability. And also the range would suffer due to the extra thirst of the Griffons.
parsifal
Colonel
There were a number of proposals for Mosquito derivatives. In November 1941, DH proposed the "DH.99", later redesignated the "DH.101", fast heavy bomber to the Air Ministry. The DH.101 was apparently something like a scaled-up Mosquito that was to be powered by twin Napier Sabre 24-cylinder inline engines, used on the Hawker Typhoon, driving contrarotating propellers. It was informally referred to as the "Sabre Mosquito".
The DH.101 was to carry a 7,260 kilogram (16,000 pound) bomb load to Berlin at a top speed of 692 KPH (430 MPH). However, the Sabre development program was troubled and DH was told they would have to make do with the Griffon, Rolls-Royce's next-generation successor to the Merlin. That configuration did not have clear advantages over the existing Mosquito and so the idea was dropped in April 1942. The Air Ministry then tossed around the notion of an improved "DH.102 Mosquito II" with two-stage Merlins, but de Havilland couldn't come up with a design concept that was particularly exciting, and that line of investigation was dropped in turn at the end of 1942.
However, during 1942, DH had begun a private investigation of a single-seat fighter based on the Mosquito. The "DH.103 Hornet", as it would be known, was intended for the Pacific theater, where the great ocean spaces demanded long range, meaning a big fighter with a large fuel capacity. Air Ministry interest seemed muted and the DH.103 was shelved for a time, but excitement over the concept picked up in the spring of 1943, leading to an order for two prototypes in June 1943 under Specification "12/43". nevertheless, administrative disinterst had delayed the introduction of the hornet by at least a year. It is quite arguable that it could have been entering squadron servicein mid 1944, if the need had been ther. and at 470mph with the manouverability of a mosquito and 4 x 20mm cannon, it would have been a very dangerous and effective aircraft.
The first prototype performed its initial flight on 28 July 1944, with Geoffrey de Havilland JR at the controls. The prototype was in the air only 13 months after the beginning of the detailed design effort. The first flight was troublesome -- the undercarriage didn't want to retract and the aircraft suffered from serious tail buffeting -- but the problems were worked out. Performance exceeded predictions, with a top speed of 780 KPH (485 MPH) and a blazing climb rate of 1,370 meters (4,500 feet) per minute. A production order followed.
The Hornet was powered by twin Rolls-Royce Merlins, which unlike the Merlins fitted to the Mosquito were "handed", with a "Merlin 130" on one side and a "Merlin 131" on the other, both rated at 1,515 kW (2,030 HP) and fitted with Hydromatic four-blade variable-pitch propellers. The engine radiators were fitted in the leading edge of the wings inboard of the engines. Like the Mosquito, the Hornet had tailwheel landing gear, with the main gear retracting back into the engine nacelles and a semi-retractable tailwheel.
The fighter was armed with four 20 millimeter Hispano cannon, fitted under the nose. The pilot sat under a backwards-sliding bubble-type canopy. The second prototype and production aircraft were fitted for underwing stores, including two 909 liter (200 Imperial gallon / 240 US gallon) drop tanks; or two 450 kilogram (1,000 pound) bombs; or eight RPs; or two 225 kilogram (500 pound) bombs and four RPs. Since the production aircraft were fitted with operational kit, they were heavier and so slower than the prototypes, but not by much, with a top speed of 760 KPH (472 MPH).
The DH.101 was to carry a 7,260 kilogram (16,000 pound) bomb load to Berlin at a top speed of 692 KPH (430 MPH). However, the Sabre development program was troubled and DH was told they would have to make do with the Griffon, Rolls-Royce's next-generation successor to the Merlin. That configuration did not have clear advantages over the existing Mosquito and so the idea was dropped in April 1942. The Air Ministry then tossed around the notion of an improved "DH.102 Mosquito II" with two-stage Merlins, but de Havilland couldn't come up with a design concept that was particularly exciting, and that line of investigation was dropped in turn at the end of 1942.
However, during 1942, DH had begun a private investigation of a single-seat fighter based on the Mosquito. The "DH.103 Hornet", as it would be known, was intended for the Pacific theater, where the great ocean spaces demanded long range, meaning a big fighter with a large fuel capacity. Air Ministry interest seemed muted and the DH.103 was shelved for a time, but excitement over the concept picked up in the spring of 1943, leading to an order for two prototypes in June 1943 under Specification "12/43". nevertheless, administrative disinterst had delayed the introduction of the hornet by at least a year. It is quite arguable that it could have been entering squadron servicein mid 1944, if the need had been ther. and at 470mph with the manouverability of a mosquito and 4 x 20mm cannon, it would have been a very dangerous and effective aircraft.
The first prototype performed its initial flight on 28 July 1944, with Geoffrey de Havilland JR at the controls. The prototype was in the air only 13 months after the beginning of the detailed design effort. The first flight was troublesome -- the undercarriage didn't want to retract and the aircraft suffered from serious tail buffeting -- but the problems were worked out. Performance exceeded predictions, with a top speed of 780 KPH (485 MPH) and a blazing climb rate of 1,370 meters (4,500 feet) per minute. A production order followed.
The Hornet was powered by twin Rolls-Royce Merlins, which unlike the Merlins fitted to the Mosquito were "handed", with a "Merlin 130" on one side and a "Merlin 131" on the other, both rated at 1,515 kW (2,030 HP) and fitted with Hydromatic four-blade variable-pitch propellers. The engine radiators were fitted in the leading edge of the wings inboard of the engines. Like the Mosquito, the Hornet had tailwheel landing gear, with the main gear retracting back into the engine nacelles and a semi-retractable tailwheel.
The fighter was armed with four 20 millimeter Hispano cannon, fitted under the nose. The pilot sat under a backwards-sliding bubble-type canopy. The second prototype and production aircraft were fitted for underwing stores, including two 909 liter (200 Imperial gallon / 240 US gallon) drop tanks; or two 450 kilogram (1,000 pound) bombs; or eight RPs; or two 225 kilogram (500 pound) bombs and four RPs. Since the production aircraft were fitted with operational kit, they were heavier and so slower than the prototypes, but not by much, with a top speed of 760 KPH (472 MPH).
wuzak
Captain
I believe that the 16,000lb load was, in actual fact, only 6,000lb.
A bomber carrying 16,000lb would have been quite a bit bigger!
Pity that the Vulture program couldn't continue. Its problems could have been sorted out before the Sabre's were, and may have provided de Havillands and Hawkers (P.1005) with suitable alternative engines. I wonder if teh V-3420 ever came into consideration in the UK, as well.
Only the same as Bergstrom. Victory 203, June 1943, in the Groningen area. I think that it may have been in early July, after the arrival of the specially finished and GM-1 equipped 109s but before the unit was fully operational. In either case this would indeed be ahead of the formation/designation of JG 50 of in August.
Cheers
Steve
DonL
Banned
I disagree, every FW 187 built and developed further on the different DB engines (with the same radiators as the the Me 110) could intercept a Moussie day and night. It is weather a myth nor uimpossible from the hard facts we have.
DonL
Banned
What has this to do with this claims?
They are wrong from a technology-based viewpoint totaly equal if the FW 187 was developed or not, the claims are wrong!
They are wrong from a technology-based viewpoint totaly equal if the FW 187 was developed or not, the claims are wrong!
DonL
Banned
You are aware, that the RLM ordered the FW 187 nightfighter/destroyer from FW at July 1942?
You are also aware, that the FW 187 was an all metal a/c and the Ta 154 was a compound design with al ot of wood?
Also the requirements of the Ta 154 from the RLM were other requirements through wood, range and armament and the requirements were from late 1942.
After this book:
Dietmar Hermann: Focke-Wulf Nachtjäger Ta 154 "Moskito" – Entwicklung, Produktion und Truppenerprobung.
the development of the Ta 154 from design beginning to the first flight in 9 month would have been impossible without the experience of the FW 187.
You are also aware, that the FW 187 was an all metal a/c and the Ta 154 was a compound design with al ot of wood?
Also the requirements of the Ta 154 from the RLM were other requirements through wood, range and armament and the requirements were from late 1942.
After this book:
Dietmar Hermann: Focke-Wulf Nachtjäger Ta 154 "Moskito" – Entwicklung, Produktion und Truppenerprobung.
the development of the Ta 154 from design beginning to the first flight in 9 month would have been impossible without the experience of the FW 187.
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