What if the Me210 was operational in 1942?

[wuzak]

30 night victories ( and three unconfirmed) claimed in 52 missions. Pretty successful. There should be one Moskito in there somewhere

Didn't really need Bf 109s to shoot down Lancasters and Hallifaxes. BF 110s and Ju 88s are more than up to that task.

You stated:

Sorry, ground radar guided. 1./NJGr 10 Moskito hunter as flown by Friedrich-Karl Müller was pretty succesful

So, not all that successful as a "Moskito hunter".

 

[rinkol]

I think there are two further points that are worth keeping in mind:

1. The Me 410 was apparently more heavily armoured than most of its contemporaries - this would have been particularly useful in ground attack and anti-bomber roles.

2. The British pilot, Eric Brown, wrote up accounts of aircraft that he tested in his books "Testing for Combat" and "Wings of the Luftwaffe". He was not impressed by the handling of the Me 410, referring to it as a "knife-edger". I suppose it is possible that the aircraft he tested may have not been properly configured, but I understand that at least some senior Luftwaffe personnel thought the Ju 88S to be preferable in the bombing role.

One could probably make a case that a version of the Ju-88 that was closer to the original concept should have been produced - this could have reached service more quickly and would have had definite advantages in the reconnaissance and fighter roles. The Ju 88 S and G, at least to some extent, did mark a reversion to the original configuration.

 

[wuzak]

To answer the original question dramatically. The Mosquito project would have been stepped up and......well that would be that.

Indeed.

For a bt of perspective - B.IV series i was faster than Me 210. B.IV series ii with ejector exhausts was much faster (~30mph). That is before the Me 210 sprouted radar antlers.

B.IV series ii is within a few mph of the later Me 410, which had the DB 603.

W4050 was tested with the Merlin 61 in 1942. PR.IXs and B.IXs were made in small numbers in 1943. They were replaced with PR.XVI and B.XVIs on production lines later in that year. A B.XVI with Merlin 76/77s could cruise (max lean) faster than the Me 210 could go (without radar).

 

[DonL]

To answer the original question dramatically. The Mosquito project would have been stepped up and......well that would be that.

I agreee, the ME 210 only in service instead of the Ju 88 and ME 110 would have made thinks even more worse for the LW. The only real match for the Moussie was the FW 187, because it was the only a/c, which was 50 km/h faster with the same engines then the Bf 109 from primary source.
There was not a single a/c in german development (except the He 100 with evaporation cooling), which was faster then a Bf 109 with the same engines!

 

[altsym]

Didn't really need Bf 109s to shoot down Lancasters and Hallifaxes. BF 110s and Ju 88s are more than up to that task.

You stated:



So, not all that successful as a "Moskito hunter".

That isn't my term. That's the name that was coined for Müller mount.

 

[wiking85]

Provide DB603 engine program with proper funding. DB603 engine enters mass production during 1941.

DB603 powered Ju-188 replaces Ju-88 during 1942.

The new Junkers bomber version will have a proper bomb bay. Otherwise Me-410A will get light bomber contract and former Ju-88 plants will license build the Me-410. I think that message will cause desired Ju-188 design change.

If DB603 powered Ju-188 meets specifications then Me-410A design gets shelved. Just one more possibly good aircraft that never enters mass production.

Me-110 night fighter production will end when Ju-188G night fighter variant enters mass production.

The historical Ju188 variant had the same bomb bay as the Ju88, but had more external bomb racks. IIRC its bomb bay was even sealed and used for extra fuel.

 

[Civettone]

Dave, wouldn't a DB 603 powered Ju 188 fly exactly like a standard Ju 188A with Jumo 213A? And as a nightfighter it would be probably a bit slower than the lighter Ju 888G-6. None of these were faster than the Me 410.

Also, I think the Me 410 could be produced in larger numbers than the Ju 88/188 which is paramount.

Kris

 

[OldSkeptic]

A wicked thought, it would have been great from the British point of view if it was available earlier.
Since it was so useless and killed so many German crews that it was worth its weight in gold ... to the Allied side that is.


Hard to believe that Messerschmitt, after the great 109, the good (and very under rated) 110 and (later) the superb 262 designs could come up with anything so bad as the 210 and the later 410 (a 210 with half the problems fixed, sadly just not the worst ones).

Not quite a Bolton Paul Defiant ... but close.

 

[stona]

There were no successful Mosquito hunters and some well known "experten" who claimed to be were mistaken or proveably lying.

The Bf 109 was not in any sense a good night fighter which is why of the 1000s of aircraft that flew with the "Nachtjagd", including "wild boars" so few were of that type. There are obvious problems with the work load on one crew member but the most serious impediment was a lack of endurance.

Cheers

Steve

 

[stona]

All those who seem to believe that the Me 410 might have been ideal as Germany's fast bomber might like to hear the opinion of Peltz, the "General der Kamfflieger", expressed in a meeting at the RLM on 12th November 1943. He had been ordered by Goering to bomb England. Pelz stated that he saw "no value" in the Me 410 and would prefer to have the Ju 88 S. It is always worth noting the opinion of the men who actually had to carry out operations, not, like us, from the comfort of an armchair.

It is also worth noting the opinion of von Lossberg who stated, on the record, on 20th August 1943, that the Nachtjagd would prefer the Ju 188 over the Me 410 and the He 219 over both. At the same meeting both Rowehl and Baumbach express views that the Ju 188 is superior to the Me 410 from a flying point of view and is the better aircraft.

Cheers

Steve

 

[Civettone]

All those who seem to believe that the Me 410 might have been ideal as Germany's fast bomber might like to hear the opinion of Peltz, the "General der Kamfflieger", expressed in a meeting at the RLM on 12th November 1943. He had been ordered by Goering to bomb England. Pelz stated that he saw "no value" in the Me 410 and would prefer to have the Ju 88 S. It is always worth noting the opinion of the men who actually had to carry out operations, not, like us, from the comfort of an armchair.

There is nothing strange about this: the Ju 88 was the better strategical (nocturnal) bomber of the two. And that is why they chose the Ju 88S as the standard Schnellbomber.
But overall, the Me 410 was better at its different tasks. The Ju 88 was superior in payload, turn rate and range, the Me 410 in speed, construction rate, armament, climb rate and dive attacks. I find the latter qualities to be more convincing, once outside the role of strategic night bomber.

It is also worth noting the opinion of von Lossberg who stated, on the record, on 20th August 1943, that the Nachtjagd would prefer the Ju 188 over the Me 410 and the He 219 over both. At the same meeting both Rowehl and Baumbach express views that the Ju 188 is superior to the Me 410 from a flying point of view and is the better aircraft.

This was mainly because of the higher landing speed of the Me 410 which made it less suited for night operations than the Ju 88/188. The latter was also easier to fly.
But this aspect is of limited value. With every new generation fighter planes the landing speed and complexity of their controls increases. If we were to follow pilots' concerns, we would still be flying Curtiss Hawks or Hawker Harts today.

Kris

 

[stona]

This was mainly because of the higher landing speed of the Me 410 which made it less suited for night operations than the Ju 88/188. The latter was also easier to fly.
Kris

This has nothing to do with the concerns of pilots. Safe and relatively easy handling were pre-requisites of a night fighter of this era. From 1939-45 the Nachtjagd suffered 4,800 aircraft destroyed or damaged 10%-60% in action and 6,200 to other causes, mainly accidents. Well over half the losses were not as a result of enemy action.

The difficult handling characteristics of the Me 410 (Brown's description was "knife edge") made it far less preferable as a night fighter than other types and this is what Von Lossberg was stating. It is easy to make comments on pilot's concerns from the comfort of an armchair. We are not likely to be one of the 3,800 night fighter pilots killed or missing in action, or the 1,400 wounded.

The Me 410 had some heavy weight political backing but most at the business end, with the notable exception of Galland, didn't want it.

Cheers

Steve

 

[Njaco]

Do you have some source about Bf 109 nightfighter?

To my knowledge not even a single Bf 109 was ever developed as a nightfighter with radar antenna.
Only FW 190A and ME 262 were the only singleseater a/c's of the LW with antenna and nightfighter capacity.

The only Bf 109 as nightfighter were the "Wilde Sau" fighter without any radar and only capable to fight with the help of the AA spotlight over major citys.

Not quite. While not as 'famous' at the time as the day fighters, there were a few Jagdgeschwaders in late 1939/early 1940 that had Nacht stafflen utilizing Bf 109Ds such as 10(N)./JG 26.
Jagdgeschwader 26

But as far "being developed" I don't believe even the 410 or the 88s were developed strictly for the purpose of night-fighting. It just became one of their uses.

 

[fastmongrel]

I have never understood why the Hugarians were happy with the 210C version when the LW were so unhappy with the version they had. Was the 210C the same as the 410.

 

[Njaco]

Same reason I guess as the Finns and the Buffalo.

 

[DonL]

But as far "being developed" I don't believe even the 410 or the 88s were developed strictly for the purpose of night-fighting. It just became one of their uses.

To my knowledge there was no ME 410 nightfighter ever at any NJG. To my knowledge there were some official tests with the ME 410 as nightfighter, but no ME 410 flew ever a combat mission as nightfighter to my knowledge.

And yes the ME 110 and Ju 88 were not developed as nightfighters, you can only say the Ju 88 G series was truly developed for the nighfighter tasks.

I have never understood why the Hugarians were happy with the 210C version when the LW were so unhappy with the version they had. Was the 210C the same as the 410.

To my knowledge yes, except the engines. The hungarian ME 210C1 had the same new longer fuselage and all other new modifications, but was flying with DB 605 and not DB 603 engines.

 

[stona]

But as far "being developed" I don't believe even the 410 or the 88s were developed strictly for the purpose of night-fighting. It just became one of their uses.

The Ju 88 and Bf 110 and others were developed as night fighters. They were distinct variants equipped specifically for that role. The Me 210/410 never was developed in a night fighter variant.

The Bf 109s you mentioned were ground controlled and in that sense were equipped, with Peilgerat IV, for a night fighting role. They enjoyed little success during the early stages of the night time aerial battle. Whilst not developed as night fighters they were what was a state of the art night fighter at the time ( 1940).

Cheers

Steve

 

[stona]

To my knowledge yes, except the engines. The hungarian ME 210C1 had the same new longer fuselage and all other new modifications, but was flying with DB 605 and not DB 603 engines.

Correct, the Hungarians also removed much of the armour and reduced the forward facing armament to 2 x MG 151/20s. According to the original licence agreement half of the Hungarian built aircraft were to be handed to the Luftwaffe. A total of 302 Me 210 were built by Dunai Repulogepgyar RT near Budapest and about 100 , much less than half, seem to have ended up with the Luftwaffe. The Germans gave the Hungarian built machines a higher combat rating than their own!

An unexpected bonus for the allies of the Me 210 fiasco was the effect on production of the Bf 109 E (production run ended March '41) and Bf 109 F at Regensburg. Between October and December 1941 not one Bf 109 left the finally assembly lines at Regensburg.

Cheers

Steve

 

[davebender]

http://www.econ.yale.edu/growth_pdf/cdp905.pdf
I doubt that. During 1939 the Ju-88 was largest German aircraft program. About 50% of total German airframe production workers made Ju-88s.

Economy of scale paid off by 1942. Ju-88 production cost dropped below RM 150,000. Less then the price of most U.S. made fighter aircraft.

Me-210C / Me-410A would require three years to achieve similar production efficiency. The delay would be fatal for 1942 Germany. They have no choice but to keep making dirt cheap Ju-88 variants.

IMO Ju-88 was a great airframe (except for lame bomb bay). It just needs more powerful engines during 1942 to remain competitive.

 

[tyrodtom]

http://www.econ.yale.edu/growth_pdf/cdp905.pdf
I doubt that. During 1939 the Ju-88 was largest German aircraft program. About 50% of total German airframe production workers made Ju-88s.

Economy of scale paid off by 1942. Ju-88 production cost dropped below RM 150,000. Less then the price of most U.S. made fighter aircraft.

Me-210C / Me-410A would require three years to achieve similar production efficiency. The delay would be fatal for 1942 Germany. They have no choice but to keep making dirt cheap Ju-88 variants.

IMO Ju-88 was a great airframe (except for lame bomb bay). It just needs more powerful engines during 1942 to remain competitive.

There you go comparing the values of wartime currencies again. Germany's official exchange rate for the mark wasn't based on reality.