What if the Me210 was operational in 1942?

[davebender]

IMO small internal fuel capacity was a greater Whirlwind shortcoming.

Fw-187 and Me-210 didn't have that problem. Both aircraft carried generous amounts of fuel. So did British Mosquito.

 

[wuzak]

Ho w do you want to develop the Bf 110 any further? It was suited with DB 605 engines. You can't get any better performance, the ME 210 was the "further" development.

Don, I think you misread what he said.

Pattle's words were "why the Germans should not have developed the Me110 any further".

That is, he is saying that development of the Me 110 should have been cancelled around 1941/42.

 

[wuzak]

Which aircraft was the developed Mosquito killer ? FW 187

Don, the FW 187 was never developed beyond the pre-production A-0s. There were projected variants that may have been able to cope with the Mosquito, but they were never developed. Other aircraft were developed or deployed to counter the Mosquito, but the Fw 187 wasn't one of them.

When did it enter service ? 1939, wasn't developed further through political reasons and a totaly brainless RLM at this time.

As Stona has already pointed out, it didn't exactly see service. It did service trials and some factory protection detail. That's it.

How many Mosquitos did it shoot down? Hard to estimate

Impossible to estimate.

a FW 187 that will reach top speeds between (620km/h/Db 601A; 660km/h/DB 601F and 682km/h/Db 601A) a lot, because it had the speed advantage

How much is that speed advantage?

B.IV with Merlin 20-series - 380mph (611km/h) top speed - 1942
B.IX with Merlin 70-series - 408mph (656km/h) top speed - 1943
B.XVI with Merlin 76/77 - 419mph (674km/h) top speed (without bomb, 408mph with 4000lb bomb) - 1944.

Top Mosquito speed - W4050 @ 439mph (706km/h) in 1943.

The Merlin RM.17SM was tested (accidentally) at 2380hp @ 3300rpm, +30psi boost in 1943. Eventually rated at 2100hp @ c.12-15,000 (IIRC).

That is to say, there was some scope for improving the Mosquito's performance.

 

[Civettone]

Was the Mosquito over hyped? An aircraft that carried out many roles and in Bomber Command service flew 39,795 sorties for 260 losses, a rate of 0.65%. Show me another aircraft on any side that comes close.

If it is over hyped why did the Luftwaffe develop an almost obsessional need to deal with it? The figures show that it never did.

Those Mosquitos flying two sorties a night, delivering 8,000lbs or ordnance with impunity sure as hell got up someone's nose!

I agree that the Mosquito is one of the best aircraft of WW2. But I do feel you are creating a hype even when you say you are not. It is only natural that less Mosquito bombers were shot down than heavy bombers. But there were never more than 200 Mosquitoes operational, so their use was limited, at least as a conventional bomber. The Mosquito was fast but when carrying its 'cookie' its performance (and handling) dropped significantly. Thus, as a bomber, it was not that invincible as often portrayed. Its real strength was as as a reconaissance aircraft and night fighter. Unlike the Me 410, it was totally unsuited as a tactical bomber. The Mosquito hardly carried any armour which made it very vulnerable against Flak, especially at low altitude. Also, woonden structure tend to catch fire easily. The Mosquito had important structural limitations due to its wooden construction. It was unable to make high G manoeuvres without its wings falling off.
Compare that with the Me 410 which was one of the strongest planes built, capable of dive bombing at an angle of 70 degrees, and strongly protected by armour. Not saying the Me 410 was superior to the Mosquito, but I do feel that both had their strengths and weakneses.

Kris

 

[pattle]

Don, I think you misread what he said.

Pattle's words were "why the Germans should not have developed the Me110 any further".

That is, he is saying that development of the Me 110 should have been cancelled around 1941/42.

You are right I was saying development should have been cancelled, the Me 210, 410 and Fw187 saga is not like the Me262 saga where a great opportunity was missed.

 

[pattle]

I agree that the Mosquito is one of the best aircraft of WW2. But I do feel you are creating a hype even when you say you are not. It is only natural that less Mosquito bombers were shot down than heavy bombers. But there were never more than 200 Mosquitoes operational, so their use was limited, at least as a conventional bomber. The Mosquito was fast but when carrying its 'cookie' its performance (and handling) dropped significantly. Thus, as a bomber, it was not that invincible as often portrayed. Its real strength was as as a reconaissance aircraft and night fighter. Unlike the Me 410, it was totally unsuited as a tactical bomber. The Mosquito hardly carried any armour which made it very vulnerable against Flak, especially at low altitude. Also, woonden structure tend to catch fire easily. The Mosquito had important structural limitations due to its wooden construction. It was unable to make high G manoeuvres without its wings falling off.
Compare that with the Me 410 which was one of the strongest planes built, capable of dive bombing at an angle of 70 degrees, and strongly protected by armour. Not saying the Me 410 was superior to the Mosquito, but I do feel that both had their strengths and weakneses.

Kris

The Mosquito carried out some of the most daring and successful low level pin point tactical bombing missions of the second world war, most of which could not have been done by any other aircraft.

 

[Shortround6]

IMO small internal fuel capacity was a greater Whirlwind shortcoming.

Fw-187 and Me-210 didn't have that problem. Both aircraft carried generous amounts of fuel. So did British Mosquito.

You are confusing the Whirlwinds role.
It carried 20 gal less than a Typhoon and considering that the Whirlwind had 1770hp worth of engines and not 2200hp so the fuel works out about right. The Whirlwind had wing about 76% the size of the one on the Fw 187, 64% of the size of the one on a Me 210 and 55% the size of a Mosquito. It was never intended to be, nor was it ever going to be, a two seat night fighter or long range intruder/bomber, anymore than a Typhoon would be a two seat night fighter or long range intruder/bomber. The Typhoons wing was 11% bigger than the Whirlwinds. The Typhoon had a tare weight 490lbs more than a Whirlwind.
The Whirlwind was a twin but it was a very small twin. IF it had been developed it would be more a rival for the Typhoon than the Mosquito or any other TWO seat twin.

 

[Aozora]

I agree that the Mosquito is one of the best aircraft of WW2. But I do feel you are creating a hype even when you say you are not. It is only natural that less Mosquito bombers were shot down than heavy bombers. But there were never more than 200 Mosquitoes operational, so their use was limited, at least as a conventional bomber. The Mosquito was fast but when carrying its 'cookie' its performance (and handling) dropped significantly. Thus, as a bomber, it was not that invincible as often portrayed. Its real strength was as as a reconaissance aircraft and night fighter. Unlike the Me 410, it was totally unsuited as a tactical bomber. The Mosquito hardly carried any armour which made it very vulnerable against Flak, especially at low altitude. Also, woonden structure tend to catch fire easily.

Evidence for any of these statements - I mean real documented evidence, not some opinionated website?

The Mosquito had important structural limitations due to its wooden construction. It was unable to make high G manoeuvres without its wings falling off.

Ditto How many Mosquitos were lost because their wings fell off carrying out high-g manoeuvres? Remember documented evidence please.

I do wish you people would show some evidence to back up your opinions, otherwise they are nothing but opinion: as it is this thread is not about the Mosquito, but here are some facts:

Fact: 108 Mosquito bombers were shot down by all German defences in 2 years of operations (+ 13 Mosquitos lost during daylight bombing ops +88 written off): 29,936 sorties. How many sorties did Me 210/410s carry out over Britain? How many were shot down?

Fact: Approx 50 Mosquitos of all types were shot down by German night fighters in two years (Kurt Welter alone claimed 35, but that's a whole other story)

Fact: over 4,000 tons of bombs were dropped on Berlin alone by Mosquito bombers in 1945. How many tons of bombs did Me 210/410s, the precision dive bomber, scatter all over Britain?

 

[mhuxt]

Fact: Approx 50 Mosquitos of all types were shot down by German night fighters in two years (Kurt Welter alone claimed 35, but that's a whole other story)

What book is that Mossie kill list from, Aozora?

Will have to do some cross-checking...

 

[Aozora]

What book is that Mossie kill list from, Aozora?

Will have to do some cross-checking...

Gebhard Aders, History of the German Night Fighter Force 1917-1945, page 245.

 

[mhuxt]

Gebhard Aders, History of the German Night Fighter Force 1917-1945, page 245.

Ahhh.

Many thanks for that - Aders knows his stuff. Will a-have to go snooping. I believe he'll be working from BAMA claims documentation, probably Fliegergemeindschaft (sp?), maybe Nonnemacher/Ring, for '45.

Some interesting stuff in there, thanks again.

 

[mhuxt]

Gebhard Aders, History of the German Night Fighter Force 1917-1945, page 245.

Another question, if I may - can you tell me what the notes 1, 2 and 3 say? (Against two of the claims by Welter and one by Becker.)

 

[mhuxt]

Here's the matches I was able to make.

Green = Matches to a bomber loss
Purple = Matches to a loss other than a bomber
Green = Possible match, difficulty with time or date
Black = Highly unlikely to match to a loss, given location of loss or type of Mossie lost, or both
Red = No match or possible match found.



Edit: Red lines through 27/28 5 1944 and 22/23 12 1944 should be yellow.

 

[Aozora]

Here's the matches I was able to make.

Green = Matches to a bomber loss
Purple = Matches to a loss other than a bomber
Green = Possible match, difficulty with time or date
Black = Highly unlikely to match to a loss, given location of loss or type of Mossie lost, or both
Red = No match or possible match found.



Edit: Red lines through 27/28 5 1944 and 22/23 12 1944 should be yellow.

Thanks for that, very interesting.

Note 1: Welter had seven Mosquito kills credited between 25 July and 4 September while serving with 1./NJGr 10.

Note 2: Welter shot down a total of 35 Mosquitos.

Note 3: Two kills with three minutes.

According to Smith and Creek, Me 262 Volume Three (Classic Publications 2000):

the Mosquito claimed by Becker on 21/22 March 1945 was most likely to have been from 692 Sqn.

6/7 April a Mosquito, probably from 305 Sqn, was claimed by Lt. Herbert Altner of 10./NJG 11

 

[parsifal]

Id love to hear from Erich regarding the claims versus actual losses of Mosquitoes.

Great work guys, very intersting

 

[mhuxt]

Couple notes:

Gebhard Aders is a first-class researcher, who uses a variety of original sources to produce quality work. The list in his book is no doubt meant to represent RAF night bomber Mossies shot down by LW night fighters. There are other Mossies, in other roles, which were shot down both by night fighters and by other LW aircraft. At last count, I had about 156 Mossies total shot down air-to-air by the Luftwaffe.

Re: the sources Aders uses. As noted above, they are generally original, or close second-hand (own research, etc). That said, original documents are prepared by fallible human beings, who make copying errors, switch dates, mis-transcribe data, etc. It's worth pointing out that Aders has Mueller's claim in May, not in August as in most casees. Someone, somewhere, has changed an 5 into an 8 or vice-versa. To judge by the photo of the tailfin of Mueller's aircraft which was posted on this board (in this thread?) a few days ago, I'd say it's Aders who has it right, and The Rest Of The World who has it wrong.

All that is a short way of saying that the black and red lines in my post above are in no way intended to pooh-pooh Aders' research, or the experiences of the flyers themselves. Take the comments I made at face value - I just can't find anything in my database which matches the claims marked in red, either on the night in question, or a couple of nights either way.

Final note re: Welter. It's hard to know whether he was claiming in good faith, a serial mythomaniac, or a victim of "salted" data prepared by a couple of post-war researchers. (They included bogus data to see which of the people they gave their work to were passing it on without permission.) Either way, it's highly unlikely he actually got anywhere close to 35 Mossies. Martin Middlebrook managed to match three of his claims, IIRC. Ten claims by Welter for Mossies appear in Tony Wood's lift of LW claims for the last five months of 1944, only one has an Anerkennungsnummer, signifiying approval. Two are VNE/ASM (= not proven, but not rejected), the rest have no notation.

The most definitive answers will come with the Second Edition of the Nachtjagd War Diaries, or with Erich's book.

 

[riacrato]

Mhuxt, the list includes nf and recon mosquitos.

There is no evidence that an OPERATIONAL Fw 187 fighter would have had a large enough speed advantage over a Mosquito flying at altitude to enable consistently successful interceptions.

This. DonL, I understand the FW 187 is one of your favourites and I am sure it would've made a great aircraft. I can see it having an advantage in a one-on-one situation versus a Mosquito due to it being more nimble. But to reliably intercept you'd need a speed advantage of, say, 50-60 km/h at least-

 

[stona]

A lot of claim analysis finally comes down to opinion. There are a lot of erroneous and illegible entries in the incomplete German records which don't help. Obviously a man like Welter (and there are several others in the same category) is not here to defend himself. Out of a sense of fairness I would say his claiming is at the very least suspicious and leave it at that. There is a risk of the thread getting even more diverted otherwise

As far as the Fw 187 entering service. Someone would have to dig in the records for the various invoices but I doubt they'd have much luck. The Germans loved an invoice, you should see the knots they tied themselves in over re-conditioned aircraft which contained some new parts!
The RLM acted as if it owned the A-0s, stipulating for example what was to happen to them in later development contracts. The partially completed airframes and possibly some of the Vs may well have been owned by Focke-Wulf.
In any case none were transferred to the Luftwaffe.
Cheers
Steve

 

[Juha]

Hello mhuxt
Very interesting indeed but does the yellow line mean "Possible match, difficulty with time or date"?

Juha

 

[Juha]

I agree that the Mosquito is one of the best aircraft of WW2. But I do feel you are creating a hype even when you say you are not. It is only natural that less Mosquito bombers were shot down than heavy bombers. But there were never more than 200 Mosquitoes operational, so their use was limited, at least as a conventional bomber. The Mosquito was fast but when carrying its 'cookie' its performance (and handling) dropped significantly. Thus, as a bomber, it was not that invincible as often portrayed. Its real strength was as as a reconaissance aircraft and night fighter. Unlike the Me 410, it was totally unsuited as a tactical bomber. The Mosquito hardly carried any armour which made it very vulnerable against Flak, especially at low altitude. Also, woonden structure tend to catch fire easily. The Mosquito had important structural limitations due to its wooden construction. It was unable to make high G manoeuvres without its wings falling off.
Compare that with the Me 410 which was one of the strongest planes built, capable of dive bombing at an angle of 70 degrees, and strongly protected by armour. Not saying the Me 410 was superior to the Mosquito, but I do feel that both had their strengths and weakneses.

Kris

Hello Kris
I must disagree with this, besides normal low-level bombing and fighter-bombing attacks already mentioned Mossie was also the main strike a/c of Coastal Command during the last part of war, making devastating rocket and cannon attacks on heavily defended convoys and harbours.

Juha