SaparotRob
Unter Gemeine Geschwader Murmeltier XIII
Great post! Thanks.
What if the U.S. and the USAAF had paid attention?
- Thread starter Akuma
- Start date
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The Basket
Senior Master Sergeant
- 3,712
- Jun 27, 2007
The Basket
Senior Master Sergeant
- 3,712
- Jun 27, 2007
The assessment tactically for Japan was wrong but the strategic planning was spot on.
Japan would ultimately fail due to economic collapse.
And the fact the Samurai were no longer a viable military force.
Japan would ultimately fail due to economic collapse.
And the fact the Samurai were no longer a viable military force.
ThomasP
Senior Master Sergeant
That is a good question. What if the samurai had still been in charge of the Japanese military, responsible for its equipment development and training, and the decision makers as far as how to prosecute the war?
I suspect if the war had happened anywhere near the same timeline, it would have been prepared for and fought significantly differently.
I suspect if the war had happened anywhere near the same timeline, it would have been prepared for and fought significantly differently.
The Basket
Senior Master Sergeant
- 3,712
- Jun 27, 2007
Samurai is two things Hollywood and reality.
The reality is far more mundane.
The reality is far more mundane.
swampyankee
Chief Master Sergeant
- 4,022
- Jun 25, 2013
Japan got rid of the samurai class for two reasons: because they were expensive and worthless in modern warfare.
In many respects the Samurai were still in charge, especially in IJN. Though the omnipresent sword-toting warriors of pre-Meiji Japan were no longer a distinct privileged class, there still existed an old-boy network such that the majority of admissions to the military academies were of Samurai stock, and an even higher percentage survived to graduation.
The IJA was "infested" to a greater extent with non-Samurai officers, and these, to a large extent, formed the "gekujo" (insubordination) faction of radical ultra-nationalists whose unilateral actions involved Japan in the invasions of Manchuria and China proper and the border skirmishes with USSR without authorization from Imperial Headquarters.
These were also the group that tended to take a hard line in dealing with the"inferior", "dishonorable" peoples of conquered territories and had the effect of sabotaging Tokyo's efforts to create a cooperative "Greater East Asia Co-Prosperity Sphere", while motivating passionate resistance movements throughout the empire. Native people throughout colonized Asia who had chafed under European domination were ready to welcome "Asia for the Asians" under Japanese leadership, only to be brutally abused by IJA officers of peasant origin who were executing their distorted concept of Samurai tradition and indulging their "privileges" of racial superiority.
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And they were mostly reactionary in their values and opposed the changes needed to make Japan competitive in the modern world. Abolishing the privileges, however, doesn't abolish the identity or the traditions, and men of Samurai heritage quickly came to dominate the modern armed services.
The Basket
Senior Master Sergeant
- 3,712
- Jun 27, 2007
Samurai was a class. A well paid class.
The soldiers of Japan. The defenders of Japan. Take away their privilege, their power and money and you get the Boshin War.
A war between the old and new Japan. The old who want the status quo and the new who want modernized industry.
But Samurai are no good against modern military and Japan could be gobbled up by Victorian powers...cough..Rule Britannia....cough.
So samurai and their cool armour and swords are for the chop.
So it wasn't getting rid of Samurai but of the whole class and thousands of years of Japanese culture. So it was no mean thing plus making trains and steam engines.
Admiral Togo went from being a son of a samurai in a feudal medieval society to leading a battle fleet to victory against the Russians in modern battleships. That's like George Washington winning Desert Storm.
The soldiers of Japan. The defenders of Japan. Take away their privilege, their power and money and you get the Boshin War.
A war between the old and new Japan. The old who want the status quo and the new who want modernized industry.
But Samurai are no good against modern military and Japan could be gobbled up by Victorian powers...cough..Rule Britannia....cough.
So samurai and their cool armour and swords are for the chop.
So it wasn't getting rid of Samurai but of the whole class and thousands of years of Japanese culture. So it was no mean thing plus making trains and steam engines.
Admiral Togo went from being a son of a samurai in a feudal medieval society to leading a battle fleet to victory against the Russians in modern battleships. That's like George Washington winning Desert Storm.
Only when Japan was attacked by foreign invaders, there being no "national army" as such. The rest of the time Samurai fought for their Daimyo ("liege lord" or "regional warlord", in western terms) in the incessant struggle and intrigue for power, prestige, and expanded domain. It was the fuction of the Shogun to keep these squabbles from getting out of hand and imperiling the status quo (essentially the Shogun's own status), usually by manipulating coalitions of loyal Daimyos against the insurgent ones.
The Basket
Senior Master Sergeant
- 3,712
- Jun 27, 2007
I am expert on Japanese history. I watched at least two YouTube videos so I have a knowledge beyond my years.
Sadly the short format doesn't allow the details which is necessary to discuss such a far reaching topic.
The end of the shogunate and the Meiji restoration had something to do with Tom Cruise.
Ute! Ute!
Sadly the short format doesn't allow the details which is necessary to discuss such a far reaching topic.
The end of the shogunate and the Meiji restoration had something to do with Tom Cruise.
Ute! Ute!
The Basket
Senior Master Sergeant
- 3,712
- Jun 27, 2007
I was reading....er...no...listening to a book saying by 1944 the only military strategy Japan had was a willingness to die in large numbers.
Is this a good strategy?
Is this a good strategy?
Thumpalumpacus
Major
USMC: "So how's that working out for you?"
The Basket
Senior Master Sergeant
- 3,712
- Jun 27, 2007
Kamikaze was a winning formula as more ships were damaged by Kamikaze than conventional means.
So it's working fine.
So it's working fine.
I have family ties to Japan going back to 1890, but mostly pre-WWII. One of my paternal-side great grandmothers was the first foreigner and first woman to become a professor in a Japanese university. My mother was born in Shizuoka of missionary parents and never discovered until I joined the Navy and needed a security clearance that her and her sisters' papers were not properly processed when they entered the US, and they were not US citizens. All three of them had been voting and holding office illegally for almost forty years, and my aunt Dorothy had a career with the State Department's USIA. VT Senator George Aiken got that fixed right away, over INS's objections.
My mother loved to cook Japanes dishes and my brothers and I learned chopsticks right alongside forks and spoons.
Ha ha! As you so very well know, New Zealand, being a rugby mad nation resisted the call to go pro for many years and many of the All Black players in the amateur years were farmers. It was not uncommon to go to watch the Saturday morning rugby match between local teams being played on a farmer's field, complete with grazing sheep and rural delights scattered about the field...
The Basket
Senior Master Sergeant
- 3,712
- Jun 27, 2007
Thumpalumpacus
Major
USMC and USN: "Let us help you out."
I was travelling round Germany during the 1995 Rugby World Cup and I was with some English types, and the only place we could get to see rugby matches on Sky was on US military compounds, (how we got onto the bases was another story for another time
) but of course we had to convince the locals (the blissfully ignorant US greenhorns from Buttf *k nowhere, ALA) that rugby was a sport worth watching... And so we did! I remember watching the All Blacks play England in the semis I think, and the Kiwis caned the English. The Americans loved it. During the final, when New Zealand lost to South Africa, I was at a party and the Americans were full of condolences, expressing how much they liked the game.It surprises me that the USA doesn't get into rugby as much as it does - there is a national team, but the USA could field the best rugby team in the world, if it had the inclination to do so.
The downside to this logic was the US was capable of replacing those ships lost at a higher rate than their losses. Kamikaze was an act of desperation; an unwinnable strategy.
