What if the U.S. and the USAAF had paid attention?

[The Basket]

Charles I has entered the chat.

The Emperor was not some rubber stamp so he knew of stuff or at least knew of to know of stuff.

So

Hideki Tojo at his trial said the emperor had ultimate authority. So sounds bad but then he recanted. So that's good.

The Emperor was certainly guilty and certainly holds responsibility.

But then again Japan had to be reconstructed and realigned as a western ally. Anti Soviet and anti communist.

So guilty but sometimes you have to play the game of thrones.

 

[Thumpalumpacus]

An excellent read on the issues under discussion here:

The Fate of Emperor Hirohito | The National WWII Museum | New Orleans

Would Japanese Emperor Hirohito remain in power after his nation’s surrender? His fate rested in part on the attitude of General Douglas MacArthur.

www.nationalww2museum.org

 

[SaparotRob]

An excellent read on the issues under discussion here:

The Fate of Emperor Hirohito | The National WWII Museum | New Orleans

Would Japanese Emperor Hirohito remain in power after his nation’s surrender? His fate rested in part on the attitude of General Douglas MacArthur.

www.nationalww2museum.org

Great read! Thanks for the link.

 

[XBe02Drvr]

An excellent read on the issues under discussion here:

The Fate of Emperor Hirohito | The National WWII Museum | New Orleans

Would Japanese Emperor Hirohito remain in power after his nation’s surrender? His fate rested in part on the attitude of General Douglas MacArthur.

www.nationalww2museum.org

Good read, though a Occidental-centric one. I still think MacArthur did the right thing vis a vis Hirohito, while Richard Frank's solution would have generated unrest and resentment just when the US was fighting a war in Korea and needed support and cooperation from Japan.

 

[Thumpalumpacus]

Good read, though a Occidental-centric one. I still think MacArthur did the right thing vis a vis Hirohito, while Richard Frank's solution would have generated unrest and resentment just when the US was fighting a war in Korea and needed support and cooperation from Japan.

Agreed. MacArthur, flawed though he was, made that one decision really well. You ever read William Manchester's biography of him?

 

[The Basket]

Occidental view? There was no Japanese view. The Americans could have had the Emperor doing a Benito and dangle him from the nearest lamppost. Could have turned Japan to ash. There was only the American view.

However.....the Americans didn't and Japan turned into a economic super power. And a strong ally against communism. And important in the war in Korea and Vietnam.

So when was the Emperor going to abdicate? Was American going to force this? I read that with slight puzzle look. After the 50s it was too late and the world had moved on.

So should Hirohito be hanged? Yes.
So should Hirohito be hanged? No.
That's my view.

 

[special ed]

I have pointed out to friends who enter into this type conversation, considering what we now call post traumatic stress, imagine the mental problems after a land invasion of Japan. Remember, old men were taught to make single shot shotguns from pipe, teens were taught to fly the Ki-115, boys and girls as young as nine were being trained to use spears and knives. Most of the US troops on the way to Japan were 18 and 19. Think of the mental problems after having to kill boys and girls the age of their brothers and sisters back home. As an example, Audie Murphy had terrible nightmares and often could not sleep indoors, and he was fighting adults.

 

[GrauGeist]

I have pointed out to friends who enter into this type conversation, considering what we now call post traumatic stress, imagine the mental problems after a land invasion of Japan. Remember, old men were taught to make single shot shotguns from pipe, teens were taught to fly the Ki-115, boys and girls as young as nine were being trained to use spears and knives. Most of the US troops on the way to Japan were 18 and 19. Think of the mental problems after having to kill boys and girls the age of their brothers and sisters back home. As an example, Audie Murphy had terrible nightmares and often could not sleep indoors, and he was fighting adults.

Not to mention that Japan had prepared for an invasion with stockpiled ammunition and fuel as well as retaining frontline fighters and attack aircraft.
They also had medium and heavy tanks manufactured just for this occasion, dispersed in strategic locations.
They had suicide aircraft and submarines situated in key locations, too.
It would have been a battle for every inch of ground.

Regarding PTSD, my folks moved to the mountains in the early 80's and it took a couple years for my stepdad to be at ease walking their property in the snow (which my Mom enjoyed).
He'd constantly scan trees, burms and other features. Any sudden sound (like a branch breaking from the weight of the snow) and he'd almost drop to the ground - this being thirty years after his experience at the Battle of Chosin.

 

[special ed]

Not long after we bailed out of VN, maybe 1975, I experienced an interesting incident in busy downtown New Orleans business area. A man was delivering a six foot gas cylinder from a stake body truck when it got away. It fell about five feet to the concrete, broke off the valve with a very loud bang and whoosh as it shot 20 feet along the street. Two construction workers working on the building near me and a man crossing the street in a three piece suit with brief case ducked almost to the cement. They then looked at each other and smiled.

 

[FLYBOYJ]

My brother just turned 72, still suffering and it's gotten worse in some respects as he gets older. The VA has been coming through for him but it's been a chore dealing with them

 

[ARTESH]

Audie Murphy had terrible nightmares and often could not sleep indoors, and he was fighting adults.

there is something else, I want to add to your post, and might be completely off topic! but it is this:

Mr. Murphy was an American and was fighting the Japanese! and this is what happened to him! now, just imagine what someone fighting in a civil war had experienced!!! he/She is fighing with his/her compatriots! speaking same language!!! that's much more terrible!!!

 

[XBe02Drvr]

So should Hirohito be hanged? Yes.
So should Hirohito be hanged? No.

I have pointed out to friends who enter into this type conversation, considering what we now call post traumatic stress, imagine the mental problems after a land invasion of Japan.

It would have been a battle for every inch of ground.

If you were to hang Hirohito, even if several years after VJ day, you would have a bloodbath on your hands, as after several years of trying to make nice-nice to the Japanese you will have spit in their eye. The outer fringe of communist-leaning Japanese would make hay out of such an event.

 

[special ed]

He was in Europe, However your civil war point is a good one. I have read much about the US civil war and the using of bayonets in battle. I believe in my former supervisor's WW2 experiences, when you are up close and see the face of the person killed, the nightmares are worse. Imagine fighting with bayonets on single shot rifles. Now consider two thousand years ago the up close fighting with swords. I suspect Roman soldiers had PTSD. Something as simple as archology can cause dreams. A fellow employee was with an archological dig in an east Tennessee Cherokee burial mound and discovered the grave of the daughter of a chief. The native Americans in the group said the disturbing of the chief's daughter was cursed. Several times in the following weeks my friend had dreams of being attacked by by someone in native dress, real enough to wake his wife with his outbursts in his sleep.. Incidentally, the value of the exploration proved an ancient trading network through various Indian Nations from the east coast Cherokee to the Navaho because she was buried with silver and turquoise jewelry made by Navaho craftsmen before the coming of Europeans

 

[The Basket]

MacArthur was either an imposter or struck by lightning as suddenly he developed perception and diplomacy which wasn't there earlier.

Right thing wrong reasons or wrong thing right reasons.

Emperor was the embodiment of Japan and sun god and so keeping him fit and happy was an easier way to occupy a country. Also Japan would have starved in the first year without Uncle Sam.

All the revisionism in the world can't hide the kindness America showed to a merciless vanquished enemy who showed nothing but venom to the world. Japan deserved nothing. Zero. Nada. Zilch. The behavior of the Japanese was in marked contrast to the treatment Japan received.

All this atom bomb this is a smokescreen to hide the fact the Japanese acted with a brutality and viciousness that meant that the loss of Japanese civilians meant nothing to them.

So should Hirohito hang is damn right he should. From the tallest gallows. But war gotta end and so he didn't. And I am ok with that.

 

[GrauGeist]

Not to stray too much further off track, but soldiers in ancient times most likely didn't suffer PTSD as soldiers would in recent centuries, as death was a daily constant: higher infant mortality rates, mortality by diseases and infections, public executions and "circuses" plus constant warfare in one form or another.

And the American Civil War was not only one of the first "modern" wars in history, but it was a brutal and bloody war with a death toll of roughly 750,000 - which was more than the U.S. casualties for WWI and WWII combined.

 

[ThomasP]

Somewhere on the internet . . . there is a very good history of PTSD, which was originally part of a formal study of PTSD commissioned by the US DoD.

For ~modern Europe there was mention of 'War Weariness' (IIRC) dating from the Napoleonic period. For the US (as a nation) there is mention of 'soldier's heart' (aka PTSD) dating from the Civil War period, 'shell shock' from WWI, 'combat fatigue' from WWII, etc.

The study also mentions letters and written anecdotal accounts (some from/about notable/prominent historic figures) of what we now call PTSD, dating all the way back to the BC period, in Greek and Latin (and I assume other languages also). Some of the personal letters involved a loved one asking for help as to how to deal with the soldier's condition.

I will see if I can find the study again.

 

[Thumpalumpacus]

The language might change, but I doubt the human trauma has changed much.

I think we all understand natural death, dying from disease or stroke or what-have-you -- but that's pretty different from seeing your buddy dying in a fire or being blown up by a shell.

None of it is easy, because all deaths force us to confront our own mortality. But the suddenness of death in combat or other rapid, exigent circumstances is very different from being able to say goodbye to Grandma Susie at the end of her troubles. It's the violence that lends the trauma.

I'd be willing to bet PTSD (or any other name, shell-shock, combat fatigue, etc) is much older than military psychology.

 

[XBe02Drvr]

All the revisionism in the world can't hide the kindness America showed to a merciless vanquished enemy who showed nothing but venom to the world. Japan deserved nothing. Zero. Nada. Zilch. The behavior of the Japanese was in marked contrast to the treatment Japan received.

Ever hear the expression "to conquer with kindness"? Sounds like idealistic liberal blather, doesn't it? I would submit that the Japanese were gently shown a better way and absorbed it wholesale, as they never would have if it were shoved down their throats with the same brutality that had been endemic to their culture. Remember, in only three quarters of a century they had come from an inherently brutal medieval warrior society to a pseudo modern industrial nation. Technological change and the societal adjustments to utilize it will happen much faster than the evolutionary changes in social mores and attitudes they enable. Just look at race relations in the USA over nearly twice as long. We still ain't there yet.
Through my family's connections I've met and spoken with a number of Japanese who were children or adolescents on VJ day, and they all remembered their astonishment at meeting battle hardened American soldiers and Marines who gave them food and candy instead of raping and killing, as they had been told would happen. It's their memory equivalent of our experience of JFK's assassination and 9-11.

 

[GrauGeist]

Just imagine if the Allies had done the same to the defeated Central powers nations post 1918...

 

[nuuumannn]

The US stance toward Japan post-war was also indicative of its policy in countering the USSR, as it was in Europe with a rebuilt West Germany. The division of Germany introduced a unique situation that had to be handled delicately, but the creation of the Federal Republic promised not only another stable European economy after the war, but also a bulwark to Soviet ambitions enacted in East Germany. Having a strong economic and military ally so close to the USSR, as well as on the Korean peninsula, the Korean situation being more akin to the German one assists the strategy of Containment in opposing the USSR.