Peter Gunn
Master Sergeant
I see what you did there, well played sir.
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I see what you did there, well played sir.In September 1940 only the P-40A, YP-39 (without turbo), YP38, F4F-3 were in production, or in near production. Additionally the X73 (prototype Mustang I) was poised for first flight, XP-47B, XF4U were making, or about to make first flights. Start of design for P-63 was six months in future.
The XP-46 was proving a failure and Curtiss was slowly losing ground as a Pursuit name. Army ordered more P-40s and feedback from Britain and France were pointing out serious deficiencies of export P-40/P-39 as combat aircraft for ETO. RAF engaged early to ensure that NA-73 would install such features for Mustang I.
Allison still locked in to single stage/single speed engine - and Army still wedded to in-line/turbo supercharger systems for high altitude performance but about to test R-2800 w/Turbo in XP-47B.
Short answer. In September 1940, the US was scrambling to mobilize from small core of Officer/NCO/Enlisted man (ALL Services) to a massive Citizen Soldier Army/Navy. From making razor blades and automobiles to Liberty ships/CVA/BB, 6x6/Jeeps, obsolete aircraft to hold the line, 1903 Springfield to Garand, High School QB to fighter pilot - and still had Pearl Harbor and PI and Kasserine Pass in the future.
We were long on base assets but woefully short as warriors prepared for mechanized warfare in three dimensions. On that scale the A6M was a minor annoyance.
I don't want this to argue the point too much, but the Allison powered Mustang prototype first flew on October 26, 1940. If the US had believed they were way behind the Japanese and had immediately ordered the Allison powered Mustang into production that would have given them 20 months to have enough built for Midway and 22 months before the beginning of Guadalcanal. I would think if it was a priority then it actually could have happened (Allison powered model only, not the Merlin powered P51B).If JC and a gaggle of archangels came out of the heavens a squadron of Mustangs would have never been available at Midway, Guadalcanal, Australia or Disneyland!!! This scenario is the epidemy of "If the queen had balls she's be the king"
And because of listening to Chennault, the AAC "would have" been that clairvoyant to cut through all the red tape and happen to get a squadron of Mustangs with trained pilots to a Navy base out in the middle of nowhere?!?! Makes as much sense as placing the Enterprise in the North Sea to support B-17 escorts' over Germany!I don't want this to argue the point too much, but the Allison powered Mustang prototype first flew on October 26, 1940. If the US had believed they were way behind the Japanese and had immediately ordered the Allison powered Mustang into production that would have given them 20 months to have enough built for Midway and 22 months before the beginning of Guadalcanal. I would think if it was a priority then it actually could have happened (Allison powered model only, not the Merlin powered P51B).
One one returnedFirst flight of the Avenger was August 7, 1941 and 6 of them made it to the battle.
There were others who were trying to point out the then U.S. military unpreparedness in equipment etc. Chennault happens to be the most famous and it's easier simply to use him as an example for the other too few voices.And because of listening to Chennault, the AAC "would have" been that clairvoyant to cut through all the red tape and happen to get a squadron of Mustangs with trained pilots to a Navy base out in the middle of nowhere?!?! Makes as much sense as placing the Enterprise in the North Sea to support B-17 escorts' over Germany!
One one returned
The title of the thread is "What if the US and USAAF had paid attention". We know what happened in real life, those in command were morons. I'm just playing along with the title of the thread. IF they had took Chennault seriously (they didn't) and said "this Zero has us seriously outclassed" (they didn't), then what would they have done? There is no way the Hellcat or Corsair would or could be ready much if any quicker than they were. I don't know if the P38 could have been or not. I don't think the P47 could have been any quicker either. I do think the P43 could have had a couple of mods like armor and fuel tanks that don't leak. It looks to me like they could have started immediate production on the Allison P51 and with a 20 month lead it could have made Midway. The Avenger did it in 1 year. I'm just playing along with the thread title.And because of listening to Chennault, the AAC "would have" been that clairvoyant to cut through all the red tape and happen to get a squadron of Mustangs with trained pilots to a Navy base out in the middle of nowhere?!?! Makes as much sense as placing the Enterprise in the North Sea to support B-17 escorts' over Germany!
One one returned
And I'm going along with the title of this thread as well and being realistic. The P-38 was coming on line in late 1941. It saw it's first combat in the Aleutians in mid 1942. It was pointed out that some intelligence was available as Cmdr Thatch worked out tactics with this situation.The title of the thread is "What if the US and USAAF had paid attention". We know what happened in real life, those in command were morons. I'm just playing along with the title of the thread. IF they had took Chennault seriously (they didn't) and said "this Zero has us seriously outclassed" (they didn't), then what would they have done? There is no way the Hellcat or Corsair would or could be ready much if any quicker than they were. I don't know if the P38 could have been or not. I don't think the P47 could have been any quicker either. I do think the P43 could have had a couple of mods like armor and fuel tanks that don't leak. It looks to me like they could have started immediate production on the Allison P51 and with a 20 month lead it could have made Midway. The Avenger did it in 1 year. I'm just playing along with the thread title.
And situations like that goes on all the time, even today. It's a matter of knowing where the resources are needed and until a shooting war starts the crystal ball will be cloudyThere were others who were trying to point out the then U.S. military unpreparedness in equipment etc. Chennault happens to be the most famous and it's easier simply to use him as an example for the other too few voices.
You're probably right, but Nimitz asked for anything he could get his hands on and the AAF sent more than a dozen B-17's, so I don't think it would be a stretch that the AAF would want to test out it's latest hot rod fighter against the IJN. I don't see it out of the realm of reality IF as pinsog says, they pushed the P-51/A-36 through to production in 1940.And I'm going along with the title of this thread as well and being realistic. The P-38 was coming on line in late 1941. It saw it's first combat in the Aleutians in mid 1942. It was pointed out that some intelligence was available as Cmdr Thatch worked out tactics with this situation.
P-51s, even early ones at Midway would never happen, that was a Navy show all the way. So again, there was little that was going to be done regardless
Or a push for production could see North American building P-40s under license and the P-51 never taking to the air?You're probably right, but Nimitz asked for anything he could get his hands on and the AAF sent more than a dozen B-17's, so I don't think it would be a stretch that the AAF would want to test out it's latest hot rod fighter against the IJN. I don't see it out of the realm of reality IF as pinsog says, they pushed the P-51/A-36 through to production in 1940.
Ouch. That would be bad, but a possibilityOr a push for production could see North American building P-40s under license and the P-51 never taking to the air?
A P51/A36 also has the advantage of being able to self deploy from Pearl Harbor unlike the P39s and P40s that they currently had at Pearl that would have had to be loaded onto a ship to get to Midway.You're probably right, but Nimitz asked for anything he could get his hands on and the AAF sent more than a dozen B-17's, so I don't think it would be a stretch that the AAF would want to test out it's latest hot rod fighter against the IJN. I don't see it out of the realm of reality IF as pinsog says, they pushed the P-51/A-36 through to production in 1940.
The British only ordered the P-51 because NA said they could build a better fighter than the P-40 in 1940, if they were already making P-40s at the time how would they then take a different order for their new plane. Since the USA wasnt interested in the P-51 N/A would have little choice.Ouch. That would be bad, but a possibility
It's a valid point with reasonable thought behind it.The British only ordered the P-51 because NA said they could build a better fighter than the P-40 in 1940, if they were already making P-40s at the time how would they then take a different order for their new plane. Since the USA wasnt interested in the P-51 N/A would have little choice.
The Beaufighter and Mosquito came about because the British hadnt put too much thought into what they needed. If they had put thought into what they needed they would probably have ordered a two engined version of a Stirling, a multi role useless contraption.It's a valid point with reasonable thought behind it.
The 10th NA-73 was delivered in December 1941 and the first combat sortie (flight level) was April/May 1942. AAF could have taken over te contract but never in time to a) allocate for training of pilots and maintainers in Training Command, b.) Create first squadrons designated for combat in Mustang I, c.) convert all British GFE to US (radios, etc), and d.) Deploy a squadron to Midway before the Brits had their first squadron operational in June 1942. The AAF would also have to completely bypass Eglin Operational Suitability Testing. The first A-36 flew in Oct/Nov 1942 and the first P-51A in Feb 1943 and first P-51B-1 flew in early May 1943. The NAA (and P-51B/C) were not given High Priority for tooling, material, Packard engines until June 1943.You're probably right, but Nimitz asked for anything he could get his hands on and the AAF sent more than a dozen B-17's, so I don't think it would be a stretch that the AAF would want to test out it's latest hot rod fighter against the IJN. I don't see it out of the realm of reality IF as pinsog says, they pushed the P-51/A-36 through to production in 1940.
A P-40E had a range of 1,400 miles with a 140 gal. drop tank...A P51/A36 also has the advantage of being able to self deploy from Pearl Harbor unlike the P39s and P40s that they currently had at Pearl that would have had to be loaded onto a ship to get to Midway.
HiThe British only ordered the P-51 because NA said they could build a better fighter than the P-40 in 1940, if they were already making P-40s at the time how would they then take a different order for their new plane. Since the USA wasnt interested in the P-51 N/A would have little choice.
I read somewhere that at some point after Midway (I don't know if it was a week, month, 6 months, a year or what) but at some point after Midway a group of P40's made the flight from the Hawaiian islands to Midway with I think a B17 acting as navigator. But I don't know where I read that or what model P40 it was.A P-40E had a range of 1,400 miles with a 140 gal. drop tank...