Peter Gunn
Master Sergeant
I see what you did there, well played sir.
What if the U.S. and the USAAF had paid attention?
- Thread starter Akuma
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I don't want this to argue the point too much, but the Allison powered Mustang prototype first flew on October 26, 1940. If the US had believed they were way behind the Japanese and had immediately ordered the Allison powered Mustang into production that would have given them 20 months to have enough built for Midway and 22 months before the beginning of Guadalcanal. I would think if it was a priority then it actually could have happened (Allison powered model only, not the Merlin powered P51B).
First flight of the Avenger was August 7, 1941 and 6 of them made it to the battle.
Also, if you have watched the news lately, there are a lot of "queens with balls" out there along with 65 other genders….
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- Thread starter
- #103
In looking over these posts there is a lot of mention of fighters with some mention of bombers in the anti-ship capacity (post Pearl Harbor). It occured to me that Chennault was also reporting pre-war (pre-Dec. 7 1941) from China on Japanese bombers and that he was citing their unusual (for that era) non-stop long range capabilities. The Condor Legion operating in Spain had initially run up against range and altitude obstacles for their then existing fighters and bombers, the He-51 and the Ju-52. For the Japanese, range while carrying a useful load at distances beyond what had been envisioned up to that time by anyone was clearly a greater problem. Chennault must have pointed out that any bomber capable of covering the over-land distances then involved in China would also be able to carry out the same operations over the Pacific. I get the feeling that even the reports on Japanese bomber range were disbelieved.
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FLYBOYJ
"THE GREAT GAZOO"
And because of listening to Chennault, the AAC "would have" been that clairvoyant to cut through all the red tape and happen to get a squadron of Mustangs with trained pilots to a Navy base out in the middle of nowhere?!?! Makes as much sense as placing the Enterprise in the North Sea to support B-17 escorts' over Germany!
One one returned
- Thread starter
- #105
There were others who were trying to point out the then U.S. military unpreparedness in equipment etc. Chennault happens to be the most famous and it's easier simply to use him as an example for the other too few voices.
GrauGeist
Generalfeldmarschall zur Luftschiff Abteilung
Now might be a good time to point out that Chennault was given information about the Chengdu A6M by a Marine attache when he returned to China.
The USN had the information before he did.
The USN had the information before he did.
The title of the thread is "What if the US and USAAF had paid attention". We know what happened in real life, those in command were morons. I'm just playing along with the title of the thread. IF they had took Chennault seriously (they didn't) and said "this Zero has us seriously outclassed" (they didn't), then what would they have done? There is no way the Hellcat or Corsair would or could be ready much if any quicker than they were. I don't know if the P38 could have been or not. I don't think the P47 could have been any quicker either. I do think the P43 could have had a couple of mods like armor and fuel tanks that don't leak. It looks to me like they could have started immediate production on the Allison P51 and with a 20 month lead it could have made Midway. The Avenger did it in 1 year. I'm just playing along with the thread title.
FLYBOYJ
"THE GREAT GAZOO"
And I'm going along with the title of this thread as well and being realistic. The P-38 was coming on line in late 1941. It saw it's first combat in the Aleutians in mid 1942. It was pointed out that some intelligence was available as Cmdr Thatch worked out tactics with this situation.
P-51s, even early ones at Midway would never happen, that was a Navy show all the way. So again, there was little that was going to be done regardless
FLYBOYJ
"THE GREAT GAZOO"
And situations like that goes on all the time, even today. It's a matter of knowing where the resources are needed and until a shooting war starts the crystal ball will be cloudy
Peter Gunn
Master Sergeant
You're probably right, but Nimitz asked for anything he could get his hands on and the AAF sent more than a dozen B-17's, so I don't think it would be a stretch that the AAF would want to test out it's latest hot rod fighter against the IJN. I don't see it out of the realm of reality IF as pinsog says, they pushed the P-51/A-36 through to production in 1940.
Or a push for production could see North American building P-40s under license and the P-51 never taking to the air?
Ouch. That would be bad, but a possibility
A P51/A36 also has the advantage of being able to self deploy from Pearl Harbor unlike the P39s and P40s that they currently had at Pearl that would have had to be loaded onto a ship to get to Midway.
The British only ordered the P-51 because NA said they could build a better fighter than the P-40 in 1940, if they were already making P-40s at the time how would they then take a different order for their new plane. Since the USA wasnt interested in the P-51 N/A would have little choice.
It's a valid point with reasonable thought behind it.
The Beaufighter and Mosquito came about because the British hadnt put too much thought into what they needed. If they had put thought into what they needed they would probably have ordered a two engined version of a Stirling, a multi role useless contraption.
drgondog
Major
The 10th NA-73 was delivered in December 1941 and the first combat sortie (flight level) was April/May 1942. AAF could have taken over te contract but never in time to a) allocate for training of pilots and maintainers in Training Command, b.) Create first squadrons designated for combat in Mustang I, c.) convert all British GFE to US (radios, etc), and d.) Deploy a squadron to Midway before the Brits had their first squadron operational in June 1942. The AAF would also have to completely bypass Eglin Operational Suitability Testing. The first A-36 flew in Oct/Nov 1942 and the first P-51A in Feb 1943 and first P-51B-1 flew in early May 1943. The NAA (and P-51B/C) were not given High Priority for tooling, material, Packard engines until June 1943.
GrauGeist
Generalfeldmarschall zur Luftschiff Abteilung
A P-40E had a range of 1,400 miles with a 140 gal. drop tank...
Hi
Yes, NA said they could build a better fighter than the P-40, their proposal to the British was made on 11th April 1940 (Spec. 1592) of NA-50B at a price of $35,101 each. The British were paying hard cash for the aircraft (plus money to expand the factory). This proposal was developed into the NA-73 which was accepted by the British and a contract was signed on 29th May 1940 for 320 aircraft (contract A-250), so ordered off the drawing board. Prototype first flight 26th October, 1940. Second British contract (A-1493) 17th September, 1940 for 300 Mustangs. On 1st May 1941 first production Mustang I flew, first Mustangs reached Britain in October 1941 and first operational mission 5th May, 1942.
Pre-production A6M2s (15 in number) were sent to China 21st July, 1940 and shot down their first aircraft 13th September, 1940, the performance of production 'Zeros' would only be discovered after this date, so it is unlikely anyone would know how the Mustang would perform against the 'Zero' until after the Mustang had been ordered and in production to the British requirements, for all anyone knew the P-40 might be better in some respects (we know the Mustang was better) to fight Japanese aircraft. However, how could the USAAC get the Mustang in service quicker? Pay for yet another fighter design themselves or replace some other fighter with it? Order off the drawing board alongside the British, accepting the British requirement and not make too many changes to suit the USAAC, although would they still make the British pay for the design totally? If not it would mean adding to the USAAC budget for yet another fighter design of which there were no shortage of, would the US Government agree to the extra expenditure or would other designs have to go (P-47, P-38 or a n other?).
As it was the Americans did requisition some of the British order, they flew in the defence of the US after Pearl Harbor with British camouflage and serials, so could those have actually been sent into the PTO, if it is thought a few aircraft could have made a difference?
Mike
I read somewhere that at some point after Midway (I don't know if it was a week, month, 6 months, a year or what) but at some point after Midway a group of P40's made the flight from the Hawaiian islands to Midway with I think a B17 acting as navigator. But I don't know where I read that or what model P40 it was.
