What was the most powerful battleship in a straight duel, May 1941?

[vikingBerserker]

No, actually the British could make a similar claim as well.

The US lost Battleships at Pearl Harbour in Dec 1941
The RN lost 3 Battleships in Nov/Dec 1941, and then lost no more from any causes.

But that was after having lost the Royal Oak on 10/39 and Hood on 5/41.

 

[vikingBerserker]

From Volume I (statistical data) of "La marina italiana italiana nella seconda guerra mondiale" at 1st may there were 4 BB with the fleet ("pronte all'impiego") it's easy think that both Littorio and Vittorio Veneto was in this number (like the Cesare and Doria)

I think the 4 were:

Conte De Cavour 1911
Giulio Cesare 1911
Andrea Doria 1913
Caio Duilio 1913

 

[Vincenzo]

I think the 4 were:

Conte De Cavour 1911
Giulio Cesare 1911
Andrea Doria 1913
Caio Duilio 1913

Cavour and Duilio were at work after Taranto night...

 

[Freebird]

But that was after having lost the Royal Oak on 10/39 and Hood on 5/41.

Uh, what's your point here? The RN were at war, so it's hardly surprising that they lost ships Sept 1939 - Nov 1941.


In fact, if you want to split hairs, the Royal Navy was the ONLY Naval power that didn't lose ANY modern capital ships after Dec 1941 - even the US can't claim that. ( modern - ie built 1930's or later)

 

[vikingBerserker]

Hi VikingBerserker,

Regarding the Russians never having lost a battleship, I thought they lost the Marat to a bombing attack?

- Ivan.

Ivan,

I happened to stumble across this while reading the Nov 18th, 1941 issue of "Der Adler", its' the Marat after haven been bombed:

 

[Njaco]

I believe Rudel was given credit for that.

 

[vikingBerserker]

I believe Rudel was given credit for that.

So THAT'S the one. I'd always hear he had sank a battleship but never knew which one. THANKS!

 

[wheelsup_cavu]

I believe Rudel was given credit for that.

So THAT'S the one. I'd always hear he had sank a battleship but never knew which one. THANKS!

Play IL-2 Sturmovik 1946 and it's the Ju-87 single mission "Sink the Marat !"
Video game history lessons.


Wheels

 

[riacrato]

It can be debated if it really was him scoring the decisive hit I guess.

 

[Freebird]

So THAT'S the one. I'd always hear he had sank a battleship but never knew which one. THANKS!

Which other battleship were you thinking of?

I think only the Marat the only Allied BB sunk by air in the ETO.

(other than the Italian "Roma" sunk by air-launched guided bomb, from German Dorniers IIRC.)

 

[vikingBerserker]

Which other battleship were you thinking of?

I think only the Marat the only Allied BB sunk by air in the ETO.

(other than the Italian "Roma" sunk by air-launched guided bomb, from German Dorniers IIRC.)

I had assumed it was either one of the Greek Battleships the Luftwaffe had sunk (Kilkis and Lemnos) or another ship ID'd as a battleship such as a large cruiser or a monitor.

 

[parsifal]

There were no British or US Battleships sunk by airpower after December 41. There were no Brit carriers sunk by airpower after 1941, though they did lose several to Uboats.

Brits lost the barham to Uboat attack, and the QE and Valiant (???) to sabotage by the Italians though they were refloated and repaired. Warspite was heavily damaged off Salerno by flying bomb, and never fully repaired properly

Kilkis and Lemnos were predreadnoughts and no longer rated as Battleships at the time they were attacked. They had in fact been demilitarised and largely disarmed.

Axis Battleships that I can think of being sunk by airpower in Europe include Tirpitz, Gneisenau (first by air laid mines, and then by bombing whilst in port), Scheer, Cavour, with many ships laid up for months due to damage

 

[vikingBerserker]

There were no British or US Battleships sunk by airpower after December 41. There were no Brit carriers sunk by airpower after 1941, though they did lose several to Uboats

I assume you are only referring to the ETO?

Kilkis and Lemnos were predreadnoughts and no longer rated as Battleships at the time they were attacked. They had in fact been demilitarised and largely disarmed.

Actually Lemnos was the only one disarmed and demilitarized and was being used as an accommodation ship. The Kilkis was placed into reserve in 32 and retained her guns. She was still rated as a Battleship according to Conway's. However, they both have been traditionally referred to as battleships (be it right or wrong) in the same way the USS Utah at Pearl Harbor was.

 

[parsifal]

I assume you are only referring to the ETO?QUOTE]

As far as I know it could be applied to the pacific as well. i cannot think of a single Allied battleship, British or US that was lost to airpower after 1941. Apart from the Hermes (I call it the herpes), I cannot think of any Brit carriers lost either in the Pacific.

 

[vikingBerserker]

"Herpes" nice

Yea, but she was sunk in 42 by dive bombers. However, I believe she was the last British carrier sunk by air power.

 

[timshatz]

So the general summation is the Bismark is the ship that is the best of the BBs in 1941. Is there any consensus on why she is better than the North Carolina (which was my pick)?

 

[renrich]

I agree that North Carolina would have been more powerful. Is the question about whether she was in commission in 1941?

 

[delcyros]

I voted for LITTORIO but perhaps I may explain why NORTH CAROLINA is not a likely candidate in 1941.

At first You will notice that NORTH CAROLINA was a brand new ship (as was BISMARCK) and suffered from problems in her skeg and initial propeller design. She was prone to very heavy vibrations near her top speed of 27 kts which reduced her operational speed to under 26 kts or her sensible FC equipment was rendered useless. This means that she is a lot slower than other ships in the comparison. A modified propeller was not installed before 1942.
The details of her protection are not particularely great (altough not poor either). Her side protection system is made from inferior grade materials (US class A face hardened armour is not much better than japanese Vickers cementated, and according to Nathan Okun substantially weaker than Krupp KCn/a, british CA or Terni CA. The 15 degrees inclined 12 in main belt offers effectively no more protection than to those offered by the british HOOD and rates among the worst side protection system of all in comparison. Her deck protection systems is one of the better ones, however. Also her exposed vitals are at best protected average taken into account that 16in barbettes US class A are not any better than 14.2in Krupp KC barbettes with regard to stopping power.
Her AAA of the early 1941 period is worser than average with regard to layout, mk44 firecontroll and performances like ceiling and effective range. Her light AA outfit consisted of four jam prone 28mm quad mounts and ten .50cal twin Browning guns and looks paltry in comparison with some european BB´s of this time. The mk44 consisted spotting glasses but in no means a device to compute lead angles necessary for an efficient AAA battery- Remember, in this timeframe we also don´t have any VT-fuzes for 5in guns, those fuzes, 40mm Bofors batteries and the Mk51computing FC turned the system from a mediocre one into a great one!
While the 5in guns are acceptable AAA guns, they are in the meantime among the worst batteries for anti surface engagements with a comparably short range, long time of flight figures, soft capped common projectiles with significantly less punch than the 6in guns carried by other ships in this role. The 5in/38 biggest asset is the high volume of fire.
There is nothing wrong on her main guns Altough she did not carried a gunlaying Radar in May 1941! All she had was FA (not installed in May1941), which was a very crude gunnery radar. The operator was required to swing the antenna back and forth manually while watching the oscilloscope, during which time he estimated the range. The radar performed satisfactorily when operating at peak performance, but this performance was difficult to maintain because of the relatively short life (about 75 hours) of the oscillator tubes. Detection range for large ships at ideal conditions was 14mls. It was not particularely exact in range and bearing discrimination and the fall of shots couldn´t be judged on display.
Also the operator had to call his ranges down into the FC-room where his information were feed into a computer by another operator. Her original radarset was more thought of as an support for the optical RF equipment.

By may 1941, NORTH CAROLINA still had a way to go until full fighting efficiency was achieved by all those minor and major modifications to take effect.

 

[timshatz]

Thanks for the post Delc. It was what I was looking for. Gives the Bismark, by virtue of her track record against the POW and Hood, the benefit in this situation. Bismark's gunnery was very impressive in the Battle of the Denmark Straights while the Hood's was pretty poor.

Ok, I get it now with regards to the Bismark.

 

[Vincenzo]

So neither North Carolina and Richelieu were ready for a may '41 duel... (so around 25% of people voted for invalid one)
There are some reason why the King George V isn't challenge? (i'm sorry if already repy to this question)