What Went Wrong At Boeing

[MIflyer]

Based on the size? I'd guess it was for C-141. I was just amazed there was zero effort made for preservation or corrosion control.

The 141 tooling was USAF property, and they told Lockheed they did not want to pay to have it stored safely. Lockheed even proposed a bomber version of the C-141 to try to keep the line open. Several years later, when the C-5A was found to be too expensive and too complex to be the "everything" airlifter, the Air Force was wishing it could have bought some more 141's.

 

[DerAdlerIstGelandet]

The 141 tooling was USAF property, and they told Lockheed they did not want to pay to have it stored safely. Lockheed even proposed a bomber version of the C-141 to try to keep the line open. Several years later, when the C-5A was found to be too expensive and too complex to be the "everything" airlifter, the Air Force was wishing it could have bought some more 141's.

Thats a common theme with all military aircraft lines...

 

[BobB]

Based on the size? I'd guess it was for C-141. I was just amazed there was zero effort made for preservation or corrosion control.

Think of what happens to plaster when left outside in the rain. The masters were ruined so there was no way to check whether the tooling still matched the plaster masters. The C-130 nose section tooling was suspected of having been damaged during shipment from California to Georgia because there were problems with parts not fitting well. All the tooling is government owned so if they don't fund preservation, there isn't any. Even if the space isn't needed for something else, Lockheed can't store old tooling inside a building unless it pays rent for the space (Marietta is Air Force Plant 6 and once an area in a building is vacated and roped off as deactivated, the AF stops charging rent on the space). When there is a need for some old tooling and it is found to still exist it is often because it was "abandoned in place" by the govt and Lockheed just shoved it outside because there was no budget to scrap it, preserve it or anything else. Someone who had worked in Tooling at the start of C-5B production said they had to spray threaded adjusters with Kroil then soak rags in Kroil and wrap them around the threaded joints so they would soak for days with the Kroil penetrating and they would finally manage to break them loose. In the late 1980's there might have been some forgotten C-141 tooling still outside but most of that had been scrapped. There also could have been C-130 tooling as there was extra tooling left over from the high production rates of the 1960's. Some of that was stored inside. The govt does try to decide what tooling is likely to be needed for future spares and preserve it. Selected C-5 tooling was sent to Davis-Monthan so it could be stored outside without preservation. There was no budget to catalog where it was stored so when a tool is needed for spares someone has to walk around until they find it.

 

[FLYBOYJ]

The C-130 nose section tooling was suspected of having been damaged during shipment from California to Georgia because there were problems with parts not fitting well.

I worked for CALAC (1980-1990) when did this occur? Early in the program?

 

[jetcal1]

Think of what happens to plaster when left outside in the rain. The masters were ruined so there was no way to check whether the tooling still matched the plaster masters. The C-130 nose section tooling was suspected of having been damaged during shipment from California to Georgia because there were problems with parts not fitting well. All the tooling is government owned so if they don't fund preservation, there isn't any. Even if the space isn't needed for something else, Lockheed can't store old tooling inside a building unless it pays rent for the space (Marietta is Air Force Plant 6 and once an area in a building is vacated and roped off as deactivated, the AF stops charging rent on the space). When there is a need for some old tooling and it is found to still exist it is often because it was "abandoned in place" by the govt and Lockheed just shoved it outside because there was no budget to scrap it, preserve it or anything else. Someone who had worked in Tooling at the start of C-5B production said they had to spray threaded adjusters with Kroil then soak rags in Kroil and wrap them around the threaded joints so they would soak for days with the Kroil penetrating and they would finally manage to break them loose. In the late 1980's there might have been some forgotten C-141 tooling still outside but most of that had been scrapped. There also could have been C-130 tooling as there was extra tooling left over from the high production rates of the 1960's. Some of that was stored inside. The govt does try to decide what tooling is likely to be needed for future spares and preserve it. Selected C-5 tooling was sent to Davis-Monthan so it could be stored outside without preservation. There was no budget to catalog where it was stored so when a tool is needed for spares someone has to walk around until they find it.

Not surprised at all. DoD in general and the accountants in particular are not incredibly efficient in regards to tooling. (I'd been victimized by the Granite City navy facility that controlled tooling more than once.)

 

[BobB]

I worked for CALAC (1980-1990) when did this occur? Early in the program?

First C-130 was built in Burbank, then tooling was shipped via the Panama Canal to Savannah, Georgia and on to Marietta about 1954. Old timers said that people complained for years about parts on the nose section not fitting properly and suggested that the tooling may have been damaged in shipment but management insisted that there was no problem. When management finally agreed to have the tooling checked, the plaster masters had all deteriorated from outside storage so there was nothing to check the tooling against. Within the past twenty years, the area around the crew entry door was scanned so that an accurate 3D CAD model could be constructed and the area redesigned to eliminate fit problems. If you ever worked C-130's and thought the crew entry door emergency jettison was Mickey Mouse, the story was that the flight crew said they wouldn't fly without an emergency exit and the door jettison system was designed "overnight" so they could get first flight done.

 

[FLYBOYJ]

First C-130 was built in Burbank, then tooling was shipped via the Panama Canal to Savannah, Georgia and on to Marietta about 1954. Old timers said that people complained for years about parts on the nose section not fitting properly and suggested that the tooling may have been damaged in shipment but management insisted that there was no problem. When management finally agreed to have the tooling checked, the plaster masters had all deteriorated from outside storage so there was nothing to check the tooling against. Within the past twenty years, the area around the crew entry door was scanned so that an accurate 3D CAD model could be constructed and the area redesigned to eliminate fit problems. If you ever worked C-130's and thought the crew entry door emergency jettison was Mickey Mouse, the story was that the flight crew said they wouldn't fly without an emergency exit and the door jettison system was designed "overnight" so they could get first flight done.

Great info and sounds like like something that would have happened during that period. I was a supplier QA rep on the P-3 and we had tooling issues later in the program after the production of the aircraft was moved from Burbank to Palmdale and a whole bunch of senior people retired. We were building P-3s for the Australians and they were pointing out fit issues at the bomb bay doors and between the elevators and horizontal stabilizers. Turned out several form blocks for structural components were made against outer mold lines in lieu of inner mold lines on tooling drawings and those assembling these components were hand fitting them to make them work. I was in a meeting with tool designers and inspectors who actually made these items and it was almost comical watching them argue with each other on errors that were made 20 years earlier.

 

[BobB]

Great info and sounds like like something that would have happened during that period. I was a supplier QA rep on the P-3 and we had tooling issues later in the program after the production of the aircraft was moved from Burbank to Palmdale and a whole bunch of senior people retired. We were building P-3s for the Australians and they were pointing out fit issues at the bomb bay doors and between the elevators and horizontal stabilizers. Turned out several form blocks for structural components were made against outer mold lines in lieu of inner mold lines on tooling drawings and those assembling these components were hand fitting them to make them work. I was in a meeting with tool designers and inspectors who actually made these items and it was almost comical watching them argue with each other on errors that were made 20 years earlier.

You might be amused to hear that when the P-3 tooling was moved to Marietta, management decided that it all needed to be repainted in a different color. There were all sorts of handwritten notes on the tooling about how to make things work and they all got painted over. But it looked really good with the new paint.

 

[MiTasol]

Bingo!!

I contract to various businesses and see this change all the time. When I go to a business with a manager who has years of experience it is easy if there is a problem.
We solve it. When I go to businesses who hire people to manage in their early twenties because they have completed a bachelor of business degree it is more a case
of them telling me why it is not their problem. One even said she was going to call head office to complain because I went in to ask to see the store room (as instructed)
just to inventory what was there - why complain - because it was inappropriate for me to ask her ?? In other words I am the manager so I don't .... something ??

One unfortunate example of sales/marketing managers getting control of product line policy (deadly) was Hewlett Packard. From years in computing HP (high price) was
always amongst the best. Yes, not cheap but definitely a case of getting what you paid for. Computers and printers were solid stuff that was also kept up to date.

The other thing that is involved in the above story is that the bean counters were heavily involved and the same problem occurs in some airlines. Thirty odd years ago during the 737 hush kit project one airlines data assessors ordered turbine blades part number x which cost several hundred dollars each. The bean counters found that they could get part number y blades for about 1/10 of that price and so ordered them and had them identified as hush kit turbine blades in such a manner that the engine shop did not realize that they had been provided with bogus parts.
Two or three catastrophic in-flight engine failures caused a rapid investigation and all the modified engines to be grounded until redone with the correct parts. Multiple aircraft grounded through lack of engines and massive loss of customer confidence etc due to all the cancelled flights. And many millions in destroyed engines and doing the job again but properly.
Another airline has multiple incidents, including a 747 running out of runway because the bean counters prohibited the use of thrust reverse and certain brake settings, in order to significantly reduce operating costs. No risk analysis was done. Same when they changed to a new lighter life raft on their 737's in such a way as to result in the crew not being able to tell if a raft was fitted. That was discovered when a Captain who was meticulous opened the stowage to check instead of looking through the peep hole before an international over-water flight. The yellow that the previous crews had seen was the insulation batts above the empty container, not a raft. Again no risk analysis.

 

[FLYBOYJ]

You might be amused to hear that when the P-3 tooling was moved to Marietta, management decided that it all needed to be repainted in a different color. There were all sorts of handwritten notes on the tooling about how to make things work and they all got painted over. But it looked really good with the new paint.

OMG!!! Too Funny! I remember they couldn't get the nose radome to fit, and this occurred out of nowhere. For weeks they blamed the subcontractor (Canadair) but in the end it was discovered the guy who installed the radomes for 10 years just retired and he took his secrets with him.

 

[special ed]

At our Kodak annual meeting 1973 was the time I saw the down turn in corporate health. As a flunky, of course there was little I could do, but my job. The bean counters took over and the instructions were "Make one more call a day and use less gas doing it". I was in field service of Kodak equipment and the national speed limit was 55mph. The corporate answer was smaller cars but we had the same parts, manuals and tools. I'm not sure what Kodak sells today.

 

[FowellBox]

My only involvement with Boeing was on a joint British and Netherlands order to build parts for the Apache attack helicopters that were ordered for the MoD (Ministry of Defence).
We were inundated with Boeing engineers who just wanted to inspect the girly calendars on the workshop walls, apparently not allowed in the US of A.
We were to make the left and right air intakes and were supplied with previously used moulded patterns, the drawings and a pair of intakes from store.
Absolutely nothing matched the drawings so we were instructed to use the pair from stores as they were known to fit. Not only weren't they to drawing but they didn't match each other, given that they were opposite hands.
We eventually managed to make them, not just for the UK & Netherlands order but also as spares for US forces.
Brian

 

[special ed]

In the mid 80s Kodak introduced a family of blood analysers (and a color copier) in an effort to save the company, I suppose. The blood analyser had extremely small orifices which needed to be kept clean with very fine drill bits. Similar to todays plastic modelling tools. The smallest was finer than a cats whisker, so when the units were introduced to Europe through Germany, some drill bits were sent along "just in case they not available there." We had a picture on the wall of the classroom of a rod with two holes drilled through it. We were told this was the response. They sent back the finest bit with instructions to check it with a microscope.

 

[jetcal1]

You might be amused to hear that when the P-3 tooling was moved to Marietta, management decided that it all needed to be repainted in a different color. There were all sorts of handwritten notes on the tooling about how to make things work and they all got painted over. But it looked really good with the new paint.

Par for the course!

 

[jetcal1]

OMG!!! Too Funny! I remember they couldn't get the nose radome to fit, and this occurred out of nowhere. For weeks they blamed the subcontractor (Canadair) but in the end it was discovered the guy who installed the radomes for 10 years just retired and he took his secrets with him.

Fred Factor