what's the diffrence?
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model299
Airman 1st Class
bf stood for Bayerische Flugzeugwerke AG
Me stood for, of course, Messerschmitt.
The bf designation was used for the period before Willy took the Bayerische Flugzeugwerke AG over, from what I remember.
If I remember right, this all had to do with Messerschmitt and Erhard Milch feuding with each other.
That's the way I understand it. Someone else can correct me if I'm wrong.
Me stood for, of course, Messerschmitt.
The bf designation was used for the period before Willy took the Bayerische Flugzeugwerke AG over, from what I remember.
If I remember right, this all had to do with Messerschmitt and Erhard Milch feuding with each other.
That's the way I understand it. Someone else can correct me if I'm wrong.
In a word...none. Willy Messerschmitt (who already had his own company; Messerschmitt Flugzeugbau GmbH) entered into a production agreement with the Bavarian state-owned Bayerische Flugzeugwerke (BFW) to produce his designs. The best known of these are the Bf 108 Taifun, Bf 109, and the Bf 110. Eventually, he gained control of BFW and all his subsequent designs carried the designation 'Me'. Hence the Me 209, Me 210, Me 410, and so on.
Both the Germans and the Allies commonly referred to the Bf 109 and Bf 110, as 'Me 109', 'Me 110'....sorta' like the way that the Mc Donnell Douglas F-15 is now called the Boeing F-15, or the former GD F-16 is now the LM F-16...Same thing. Either designation is acceptable.
Both the Germans and the Allies commonly referred to the Bf 109 and Bf 110, as 'Me 109', 'Me 110'....sorta' like the way that the Mc Donnell Douglas F-15 is now called the Boeing F-15, or the former GD F-16 is now the LM F-16...Same thing. Either designation is acceptable.
Njaco
The Pop-Tart Whisperer
same thing for Focke-Wulf - all machines by Focke-Wulf were designated Fw like Fw 190, Fw 200. Recognizing employee Kurt Tank's work at Focke-Wulf brought about the Ta designation such as Ta 152, Ta 154 etc.
Later in the war designations were changed to recognize the outstanding designs of those engineers within the company like Willi Messerschmitt and Kurt Tank.
Later in the war designations were changed to recognize the outstanding designs of those engineers within the company like Willi Messerschmitt and Kurt Tank.
phoenix7187
Airman
The RLM had full control over everthing, names, work numbers, paint/camo you name it. The RLM never changes the old manfacture designation. The correct manfacture code for the aircraft series 109 is BF. As others said the later aircraft used the Me code. I have seen the ME designation on engine and other manfacturing documentation in reference to the 109, but officially it was BF. The allies also refered to the 109 as ME.
Also everything up to 162 was Bf and everything after was Me.
Hense Bf 162 and Me 163.
Hense Bf 162 and Me 163.
Hi Flyboy,
>can someone tell me the diffrence of the me and bf-109s
In addition to the explanations you already received, I'd like to point out that while "Bf 109" was used in communications within the RLM and with the aviation industry, a lot of material intended for the public featured the parallel designation "Me 109" with the RLM's official blessing.
I'm aware of RLM-authorized aircraft recognition booklets that use the "Me 109" designation, and the Luftwaffe's official propaganda magazine, "Der Adler", did the same.
Many books will tell you that "Me 109" is 'wrong' and only "Bf 109" is correct, but that's really over-simplifying things ... both were used, and in different context.
(Additionally, Luftwaffe personnel routinely referred to the type as "Me 109" - probably indoctrinated by the RLM-approved aircraft recognition books. Within the RLM, the type was also called "8-109", following a numerical system that assigned leading numbers for each category of equipment and entirely dropping the information on the manufacturer.)
Pronounciation in German was like "may hundrednine", by the way, not like "emm ee one oh nine" as in Allied practice.
Regards,
Henning (HoHun)
>can someone tell me the diffrence of the me and bf-109s
In addition to the explanations you already received, I'd like to point out that while "Bf 109" was used in communications within the RLM and with the aviation industry, a lot of material intended for the public featured the parallel designation "Me 109" with the RLM's official blessing.
I'm aware of RLM-authorized aircraft recognition booklets that use the "Me 109" designation, and the Luftwaffe's official propaganda magazine, "Der Adler", did the same.
Many books will tell you that "Me 109" is 'wrong' and only "Bf 109" is correct, but that's really over-simplifying things ... both were used, and in different context.
(Additionally, Luftwaffe personnel routinely referred to the type as "Me 109" - probably indoctrinated by the RLM-approved aircraft recognition books. Within the RLM, the type was also called "8-109", following a numerical system that assigned leading numbers for each category of equipment and entirely dropping the information on the manufacturer.)
Pronounciation in German was like "may hundrednine", by the way, not like "emm ee one oh nine" as in Allied practice.
Regards,
Henning (HoHun)
Hi Kruska,
>Therefore the designation Me109, or Me110 is wrong even if some documents would designate it as such.
Except that the RLM actively propagandized these "wrong" designations world wide through its official magazine "Der Adler", while providing aircraft recognition manuals to the German public that also spread these "wrong" designations more widely and more thoroughly than any technical data sheet the ministry ever published.
The truth is that the RLM was officially using two designations in parallel, "Me 109" for everyone in the general public and "Bf 109" for the technocrats within the ministry itself.
Regards,
Henning (HoHun)
>Therefore the designation Me109, or Me110 is wrong even if some documents would designate it as such.
Except that the RLM actively propagandized these "wrong" designations world wide through its official magazine "Der Adler", while providing aircraft recognition manuals to the German public that also spread these "wrong" designations more widely and more thoroughly than any technical data sheet the ministry ever published.
The truth is that the RLM was officially using two designations in parallel, "Me 109" for everyone in the general public and "Bf 109" for the technocrats within the ministry itself.
Regards,
Henning (HoHun)
Hi Graeme,
"To this day many of the fighter pilots who fought these aircraft find it hard to believe that they were actually the Bf 109 and Bf 110."
Indeed - even Galland pointed out that they were invariably called "Me" by the Luftwaffe men. (See the German foreword to Caidin's "Me 109".)
Gunston is in fact spreading ill-researched stuff of the type he means to correct.
Regards,
Henning (HoHun)
"To this day many of the fighter pilots who fought these aircraft find it hard to believe that they were actually the Bf 109 and Bf 110."
Indeed - even Galland pointed out that they were invariably called "Me" by the Luftwaffe men. (See the German foreword to Caidin's "Me 109".)
Gunston is in fact spreading ill-researched stuff of the type he means to correct.
Regards,
Henning (HoHun)
phoenix7187
Airman
From how I understand it. willy wanted the code changed to ME and was denied. messerschmitt in many documents used it anyway. Also with other messerschmitt products under the ME code the general guy on the field would use ME or BF or whatever. Finally near the end of the war the RLM started to lose It's ability to maintain order. This is also way you see no official call out for RLM paint code description 81 and alot of other odd stuff going on late in the war. Like Hohun said and I have seen it too. You DO see memos and paper work from the RLM and others with the manfacture code ME, but if you want to be 100% correct about it was still BF.
Infact I have seen it refered to as both ME and BF on the same document. This was all part of the confussion going on between all the parties involved. You must also keep in mind that there is a ton of fales info out there. The nazis were spreading alot of false info at the time. Most of it is in reference to unit strength and aircraft numbers, but some of it is in reference to aircraft performance and what they were building. This is one reason why today we can't pin down exact production numbers for many aircraft. What wasn't destroyed may be false.
Infact I have seen it refered to as both ME and BF on the same document. This was all part of the confussion going on between all the parties involved. You must also keep in mind that there is a ton of fales info out there. The nazis were spreading alot of false info at the time. Most of it is in reference to unit strength and aircraft numbers, but some of it is in reference to aircraft performance and what they were building. This is one reason why today we can't pin down exact production numbers for many aircraft. What wasn't destroyed may be false.
Hi Flyboy,
"Bf" was the official RLM designation for these types, but the equally official RLM publication "Der Adler" and the RLM-approved aircraft recognition booklets for the NSFK called the same types "Me".
Messerschmitt must have used the "Me" designation for long enough to annoy his arch enemy Milch because at one point in the Me 110 program, the RLM issued an order to return all mail from Messerschmitt using the "Me" designation to the sender unprocessed. (The order is quoted in Mankau/Petrick's destroyer book. That Milch was involved is my speculation, but it seems a rather safe bet.)
So on one hand, the RLM was ready to put the thumb-screws on Messerschmitt to enforce "their" designation, on the other hand their official propaganda material was actively popularizing "his" designation world-wide, and drumming it into the heads of the young generation of Germans about to join the military ...
There is another level of designation, and that's the one given by the manufacturer. Messerschmitt might have accepted it that the RLM called his aircraft "Bf" because they were paying for it, but when he offered the design for sale abroad, it sure was called "Me" and not "Bf".
The attached manual cover page is an example ... note the Antiqua typeface instead of the Gothic script typical for German documents of the era, showing that it was not meant for the German market but for export.
Regards,
Henning (HoHun)
"Bf" was the official RLM designation for these types, but the equally official RLM publication "Der Adler" and the RLM-approved aircraft recognition booklets for the NSFK called the same types "Me".
Messerschmitt must have used the "Me" designation for long enough to annoy his arch enemy Milch because at one point in the Me 110 program, the RLM issued an order to return all mail from Messerschmitt using the "Me" designation to the sender unprocessed. (The order is quoted in Mankau/Petrick's destroyer book. That Milch was involved is my speculation, but it seems a rather safe bet.)
So on one hand, the RLM was ready to put the thumb-screws on Messerschmitt to enforce "their" designation, on the other hand their official propaganda material was actively popularizing "his" designation world-wide, and drumming it into the heads of the young generation of Germans about to join the military ...
There is another level of designation, and that's the one given by the manufacturer. Messerschmitt might have accepted it that the RLM called his aircraft "Bf" because they were paying for it, but when he offered the design for sale abroad, it sure was called "Me" and not "Bf".
The attached manual cover page is an example ... note the Antiqua typeface instead of the Gothic script typical for German documents of the era, showing that it was not meant for the German market but for export.
Regards,
Henning (HoHun)
Attachments
phoenix7187
Airman
I should also add this. I myself have never seen any official paper work between the RLM, OKL, and the reich high command that uses the ME code. it's always either BF or 8.
I could be wrong, but that just based only on what I have seen thus far. I might be alot more usefull if it didn't take me forever to read german. I have handbooks here I still don't even know what they are.
I could be wrong, but that just based only on what I have seen thus far. I might be alot more usefull if it didn't take me forever to read german. I have handbooks here I still don't even know what they are.
kool kitty89
Senior Master Sergeant
One argument I've heard is that the 109A-F were Bf, but since the 109G and later models are Me 109's. I can't remember the total reasoning though. (I think it was that development of the 109G started after the Me designation system) So basincly encorporating both new design designations (ie Me 163, Me 410, Me 262 etc) but also encorporating new models of older designs ie Me 109G, Me 109K.
Kruska,
Re: "...almost right."
I don't have any original source documents, but AV Ishoven's, "Messerschmitt"(Gentry Books, '75), states that Messerschmitt and Theo Croneiss (a noted German sportsflyer and operater of a flying school) founded Messerschmitt Flugzeugbau GmbH on April 28, 1926. the company's first new design was the M18, a small 4-6 passenger airliner, of which 25 were eventually built.
The BFW (derived from the earlier Udet company) was having problems, and as Messerschmitt lacked the capacity to fulfill his orders, the RVM proposed that the two companies pool their resources. After long negotiations, it was agreed that BFW would concentrate on production, and Messerschmitt would limit its activities to the development of new designs. Both companies retained their independence, and after signing a contract to that effect on Sept.8/27, Willy Messerschmitt moved his personnel and equipment to Augsberg, where he designed aircraft under the 'Bf' designation until the event you posted about took place in '38.
JL
Re: "...almost right."
I don't have any original source documents, but AV Ishoven's, "Messerschmitt"(Gentry Books, '75), states that Messerschmitt and Theo Croneiss (a noted German sportsflyer and operater of a flying school) founded Messerschmitt Flugzeugbau GmbH on April 28, 1926. the company's first new design was the M18, a small 4-6 passenger airliner, of which 25 were eventually built.
The BFW (derived from the earlier Udet company) was having problems, and as Messerschmitt lacked the capacity to fulfill his orders, the RVM proposed that the two companies pool their resources. After long negotiations, it was agreed that BFW would concentrate on production, and Messerschmitt would limit its activities to the development of new designs. Both companies retained their independence, and after signing a contract to that effect on Sept.8/27, Willy Messerschmitt moved his personnel and equipment to Augsberg, where he designed aircraft under the 'Bf' designation until the event you posted about took place in '38.
JL
phoenix7187
Airman
Thanks hohun I didn't know that. I knew there was issues between them two and that the RLM had taken issue with the ME manfacture code. But have also seen the RLM send papers to both messerschmitt and daimler-Benz using the ME code themselves. Like I said somewhere I have a document where both are used. I though that was funny myself.
Hi Phoenix,
>But have also seen the RLM send papers to both messerschmitt and daimler-Benz using the ME code themselves. Like I said somewhere I have a document where both are used. I though that was funny myself.
Fascinating - this adds another layer of complexity! I wonder if maybe the date of the RLM papers might help explain this ... a very early or maybe a late-war date might explain it.
By the way, have you ever heard of aircraft data plates stamped with a "Me 109" designation? Somewhere on the internet I once found a scan of such a plate, but I suspect that there is a market for fake data plates, and as I don't know the source of the scan, it would be difficult to conclude anything from it.
Regards,
Henning (HoHun)
>But have also seen the RLM send papers to both messerschmitt and daimler-Benz using the ME code themselves. Like I said somewhere I have a document where both are used. I though that was funny myself.
Fascinating - this adds another layer of complexity! I wonder if maybe the date of the RLM papers might help explain this ... a very early or maybe a late-war date might explain it.
By the way, have you ever heard of aircraft data plates stamped with a "Me 109" designation? Somewhere on the internet I once found a scan of such a plate, but I suspect that there is a market for fake data plates, and as I don't know the source of the scan, it would be difficult to conclude anything from it.
Regards,
Henning (HoHun)
kool kitty89
Senior Master Sergeant
I also read that after the 1938 switch, the Messersmitt company (and documents) subsequently referred to it as the Me 109. (in addition to the propaganda print name, and the common LW name "may hundert-neun")
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